AHC: Break the Entente Cordiale

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The challenge is to shatter the diplomatic alliance between Great Britain and the Third French Republic that emerged around the turn of the 20th Century.
The PoD must be post 1905.

Bonus points if you can devise a path to a shooting war between the two powers.
 
Russia and France had an alliance.

Russia was considered the main enemy by various parts of the British elite until Russia was emasculated by Japan in the Russo Japanese war. After that it was considered safe to become friendly with France.

The Entente cordiale was a deescalatation of tensions between France and Britain not a real alliance. After Russia was cut off by Japan the Entente became a lot closer.

Can we give Russia a miracle against Japan. Britain remains cautious of Franco Russian alliances and tensions resume?

Or is that too early a pod.
 
I don't know, but maybe create some more instability in France?
Oscilating between "left and right" Imo could sour the British towards the French. That is Imo esp. so if the French use Colonial Politics to garner internal points by taking a hard stance vs. the British, or realistically vs. all commers.
 

Perkeo

Banned
Let Germany
a) stop the naval race immediately after the POD
b) make it clear that they respect the status quo in its west
c) try to create fear of a Russio-French hegemony in Europe
and hope for French mistakes.
 
Russia and France had an alliance.

Russia was considered the main enemy by various parts of the British elite until Russia was emasculated by Japan in the Russo Japanese war. After that it was considered safe to become friendly with France.

The Entente cordiale was a deescalatation of tensions between France and Britain not a real alliance. After Russia was cut off by Japan the Entente became a lot closer.

Can we give Russia a miracle against Japan. Britain remains cautious of Franco Russian alliances and tensions resume?

Or is that too early a pod.

post 1905 the best would be the Russian fleet slips through the straits of Tsushima because of dense fog. Happened a lot so its not a huge POD. Once the fleet makes it to Vladivostok and starts raiding Japanese shipping, the Russians are capable of turning the war around. The Russian army was arguing by September that Nicholas should break off negotiations and resume the war

So have the Russians win and then tell the French: stop flirting with the British and join Bjorko with us. But that's not what we're after are we? We want just Anglo-French tensions?
 
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raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
Britain refuses to back France in a war with Germany over Morocco?

And what happens to diplomatic alignments next? If disappointed in Britain, where do the French look for alternate support (besides Russia warts and all)?

It does not seem like it would be smart or productive, but if Britain breaks its word over Morocco (in French eyes), will the French start whining about Egypt again?

Perhaps a British refusal to back France is a result of Britain thinking that France is getting emboldened into unwanted confrontations. If that thought process continues, Britain would be wary of commitments to France for a long while.
 
Another Dogger Bank type incident happens as the Baltic Fleet heads east to its doom, only this time rather than a few fishing boats a P and O or Union Castle liner is sunk leading to Britain declaring war on Russia. France is Russia's ally so at the very least relations between Britain and France become decidedly arctic in nature. The Baltic Fleet enters French Indo Chinese waters for rest and refueling but a British Destroyer squadron launches a night torpedo attack on the Russians. France reacts with outrage at this violation of their territorial waters and war is declared. With Russia otherwise engaged in Siberia Germany takes the opportunity to strike out at France with Britain as at least a cobelligerent. The French Fleet is sunk and large sections of France overrun with Germans. Cut off from outside sources of supply France surrenders.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
media.jpg


The challenge is to shatter the diplomatic alliance between Great Britain and the Third French Republic that emerged around the turn of the 20th Century.

WWI doesn't break out in 1914. Once Russia's Great Military Program is completed in 1917, Britain drifts away from France and Russia and eventually allies with Germany and Austria-Hungary.

The PoD must be post 1905.

Frankly, I'm glad that you didn't put an end date for this. :)

Bonus points if you can devise a path to a shooting war between the two powers.

France and Russia go to war against Britain, Germany, and one or more of these three powers (Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire, and Japan) around 1950--once France and Russia feel sufficiently confident that they can with a war with Britain and Germany.

There--how exactly is that? :)
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
WWI doesn't break out in 1914. Once Russia's Great Military Program is completed in 1917, Britain drifts away from France and Russia and eventually allies with Germany and Austria-Hungary.



Frankly, I'm glad that you didn't put an end date for this. :)



France and Russia go to war against Britain, Germany, and one or more of these three powers (Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire, and Japan) around 1950--once France and Russia feel sufficiently confident that they can with a war with Britain and Germany.

There--how exactly is that? :)

Hmm- Britain "tilts" towards Germany and Austria by the 1920s. France therefore sticks with Russia. I figure Italy and Greece, Scandinavia and Iberia and the Ottomans would have a natural tilt towards the British and Germans against the Russians.

Would the Japanese be enthusiastic participants in the anti-Russian coalition? On the one hand their primary alliance was with Britain. On the other hand the Russians and Japanese made several bilateral deals between the Treaty of Portsmouth and Russian Revolution. The French and Japanese also made some bilateral deals.

The attitudes of certain powers toward Russia (especially the Japanese and Ottomans) could be shaped by how Russia chooses to, or chooses not to, throw its weight around post 1917.
 
The challenge is to shatter the diplomatic alliance between Great Britain and the Third French Republic that emerged around the turn of the 20th Century.
The PoD must be post 1905.

Bonus points if you can devise a path to a shooting war between the two powers.

Post 1905? Hard. Before 1905, I'd say it was actually quite likely that France, Germany, Austria-Hungary and Russia might join together in an anti-British alliance. Afterwards? I'm not sure. Kaiser Willy falls down a flight of stairs and lives the rest of his life as a brain damaged vegetable, meaning that he isn't aggravating the French and Brits into an alliance together?

fasquardon
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Hmm- Britain "tilts" towards Germany and Austria by the 1920s. France therefore sticks with Russia. I figure Italy and Greece, Scandinavia and Iberia and the Ottomans would have a natural tilt towards the British and Germans against the Russians.

In regards to Italy and Greece, I actually suspect that they would lean more towards France and Russia but still be neutral. Basically, Italy still wants the Italian-majority parts (and Dalmatia as well) of A-H and Greece wants the parts of the Ottoman Empire where there are a lot of Greeks. Also, I suspect that Romania would be neutral but also lean towards France and Russia due to its desire to acquire Transylvania.

Would the Japanese be enthusiastic participants in the anti-Russian coalition? On the one hand their primary alliance was with Britain. On the other hand the Russians and Japanese made several bilateral deals between the Treaty of Portsmouth and Russian Revolution. The French and Japanese also made some bilateral deals.

I think that this would depend on which party can offer more to Japan. On the one hand, Britain and Germany could promise Japan French Indochina in the event of victory; meanwhile, on the other hand, France and Russia could promise Japan a free hand in China.

The attitudes of certain powers toward Russia (especially the Japanese and Ottomans) could be shaped by how Russia chooses to, or chooses not to, throw its weight around post 1917.

Completely agreed.

Also, out of curiosity--how do you think that a WWI which breaks out around 1950 in this TL (minus the nukes, since the invention of those is probably going to be delayed by a couple of decades in this TL) is going to look like?
 
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