AHC: Boxer rebels stay primarily an anti-Manchu movement?

raharris1973

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The challenge is to have the Boxers remain mainly behind their "expel the Qing restore the Ming" agenda rather than becoming wholesale focused against expelling foreigners and Christian converts.

If they fall into obscurity pretty quickly, that's OK I guess, but major bonus points if you can come up with a way for them to become a major rebellion, besieging Qing ruled cities and garrisons.

Additionally, is there any way to actually do a Ming restoration in the 1700s or 1800s, whether it means them becoming a dynasty again in the completely traditional sense, or a facade behind which other power holders hide their brightness?
 
If they fall into obscurity pretty quickly, that's OK I guess, but major bonus points if you can come up with a way for them to become a major rebellion, besieging Qing ruled cities and garrisons.

Additionally, is there any way to actually do a Ming restoration in the 1700s or 1800s, whether it means them becoming a dynasty again in the completely traditional sense, or a facade behind which other power holders hide their brightness?

Well weak Boxers are just a question of the Qing Empire never giving them state sponsorship. That could be due to any number of issues - paranoia about the Boxer's anti-Manchu roots, a Qing Dynasty more comfortable with the level of foreign influence, the capricious whims of Cixi, etc.

Boxers per se aren't likely to erupt into a major anti-Qing rebellion, but I could definitely imagine them joining up with other Daoist forces/Triad societies to erupt into rebellion, maybe for example in support of Sun Yat-Sen's many attempts in the south. Fundamental problem, of course, is that SYS' efforts were in the south while the Boxers were a northern phenomenon.

Anti-Qing, pro-Ming attempts weren't rare occurrences... see White Lotus Rebellion of early 19thC as a large example. Chinese rebellions are generally correlated with agricultural weakness, so a particularly bad couple years of drought could probably do the trick.

I personally think "Ming Restoration" is going to be, at best, a façade. After all, calling for "Ming Restoration" basically means that a rebel leader has to give up his hard-earned power back to a member of the Zhu family. What's the point in that? Much better for said rebel leader to claim that he is a "long-lost descendant of Emperor Jianwen" and then fight under the "Ming" banner.
 

raharris1973

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Speaking of the Mings, this is an interesting bit I just learned about their descendants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_of_Extended_Grace

Although Ming pretenders appeared with some plausible lineage in some revolts in the 1600s, I think this stopped by the early 1700s And one branch of descendants, rather than being killed off, were made hereditary office holders under the Qing.


---by the way, why was reaction so negative to Yuan Shih-Kai's dynastic attempt?
It was a major political blow for him, and considered one of the big spoilers of any positive legacy?
 
---by the way, why was reaction so negative to Yuan Shih-Kai's dynastic attempt?
It was a major political blow for him, and considered one of the big spoilers of any positive legacy?

Because nobody wanted the monarchy back, even under a Han. Plain and simple.
 
Yeah, the Ming was dead by the late 17thC. Lineage was never really an important part of Chinese dynastic legitimacy anyway.

---by the way, why was reaction so negative to Yuan Shih-Kai's dynastic attempt?
It was a major political blow for him, and considered one of the big spoilers of any positive legacy?

A couple of points:

1) Yuan acceded to the Twenty-One Demands of Japan in 1915, in effect giving Japan all of Germany's former colonies + rights in China. It is generally suspected (probably correctly) that the collateral for agreeing with that is support for Yuan's nascent Empire.

2) Yuan basically tried to "do in" the KMT before declaring himself Emperor, assassinating 2nd-in-command Song Jiaoren in 1913 and crushing Sun Yat-Sen's "2nd Revolution" in 1914. So understandably KMT supporters were not happy with Yuan, and that block consists of China's intellectuals and large sections of the middle class.

3) Yuan probably underestimated the success of the KMT narrative that "Imperial China = Backwards". This narrative was probably accepted by most people on the "modernizing edge" of China, and that includes the rank-and-file of the Beiyang Army. Probably why Yuan's military allies abandoned him.

KMT and PRC historians with axes to grind have probably exaggerated the level of opposition (especially away from the cities and the barracks), and frankly if people knew what the results of toppling Yuan were I doubt many would have opposed him. It was still a stupid move by Yuan, though.
 
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