AHC: Better warships over the LCS?

[GarethC]

What ships would you choose as a successor to the FFG Oliver Hazard Perry Class over the ill suited and under armed Littoral Combat Ship?

What is my role in making that choice?

Congressperson on an Armed Services committee?
Congressperson from a district with a major shipyard?
LCDR in the Pentagon looking to leave the Navy and take up a nice consultancy role with a major defence industry player?
Careerist who expects to take the lead example into harm’s way en route to a flag rank and maybe the Navy seat on the JCS?
Board member of General Dynamics?
Taxpayer from Colorado?

Not all answers are the same.

 

[Killer in]

Would not say a flight 4 style OHP be viable ?

 

[SsgtC]

Would not say a flight 4 style OHP be viable ?

They have an RCS nearly as big as a carrier. Redesigning to cut that down would be more expensive than designing a whole new ship

 

[Pseudo]

What is my role in making that choice?

You're the guy who get's to decide, that's inherent to the concept of the thread.

Go nuts. I'm thinking an Absalon-esque solution with a couple of LM2500's. What do you think?

 

[GarethC]

Ok, so, as a sales rep of the Bath Iron Works division of General Dynamics, is that I think we need to be looking at two different ship classes here.
On the one hand, there's a non-CVBG mostly-ASW frigate, so it doesn't need to be looking at 33+ knots, but does need

• About 5000ish tons displacement
• Something like 3000kW of diesels and about 60,000 shp of turbines for ~28kts and 9000nm range
• 2x helo of some LAMPS / navalised Blackhawk flavour.
• 8-module Mk 57 (32 cells) VLS - ESSM, ASROC, probably a few SSM - either Harpoon or that Norwegian NSM would be fine.
• 76mm Oto Melara or a 5" if it will fit.
• Maybe a Phalanx - is Phalanx capable against BrahMos etc? Not sure it's still a valid defence against current-generation missiles.
• 2xBushmaster 25mm to keep Boghammars honest
• a towed-array sonar
• The usual festoonery of radars, ESM, ECM, radar decoys, sonar decoys, Prairie/Masker, etc.
• Yes, a low RCS is nice, but as important is the ability to run quiet

Call it a Knox II rather than a Perry II, but it's not a million miles off a US-flavored reimagining of a Type 23. It's a non-littoral escort, because there are places that the USN wants to be (and here I mean "the Pacific") that it doesn't necessarily want to put a carrier group.

And on the other hand, there's an actual littoral combat ship, which only needs 1 helo, and does without the towed array, and is smaller - ANZAC sized, would be my guess. For playing in the Persian Gulf or the Straits of Malacca. For that RCS is more important than noise, what with the generally-degraded performance of sonar in cluttered shallow waters.

USN doctrine should include area AAW cover from a Burke for both of these, and probably shove a Knox II in with a division of LCSs for the odd thermocline in the deeper bits of the Gulf or off the Korean peninsula while the LCSs do the main business of sea control. And rely on Air Navy to make sure that no bad guys' planes manage to spoil the day of these folks, because with the best will in the world they are barely capable of self-defence against a moderate air attack.

 

[AdA]

IVER HUIFELDT frigates (2012-2014)

navypedia.org

ABSALON flexible support ships (2005)

navypedia.org

Large Frigates that are designed with modular spaces that allow for multiple mission configurations

 

[steamboy]

Found a better ship than the LCS, low cost, very shallow draft, simple propulsion system and lots of room to carry personnel.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Found a better ship than the LCS, low cost, very shallow draft, simple propulsion system and lots of room to carry personnel.

Typical penny pinching again - I note that it is "equipped for but not with" a Corvus boarding device - pffft!!!

 

[steamboy]

Typical penny pinching again - I note that it is "equipped for but not with" a Corvus boarding device - pffft!!!

I think you mean 'modular' my friend, this ship is presented here in its basic form. The upgrades are cheap, easy to install and operate.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I think you mean 'modular' my friend, this ship is presented here in its basic form. The upgrades are cheap, easy to install and operate.

I suspect a senator or 12 making a sneaky profit putting good honest legionnaires at risk

Crucifixion is too good for them I say

 

[steamboy]

I suspect a senator or 12 making a sneaky profit putting good honest legionnaires at risk

Crucifixion is too good for them I say

Oh and I suppose you would suggest we buy them from Carthage?

 

[Riain]

I think that the LCS shows its not possible to make a FAC into an oceanic escort or an oceanic escort into a minesweeper. I get the concept of littoral combat, Israel has done it for real since the 60s and there were huge littoral forces in the Baltic, Med and Black seas throughout the Cold War, hell JFK got famous from PT109 which is the WW2 version of littoral combat. Its perfectly gine to build one of these, the US could do it in a heartbeat, but it is going to be a FAC and not capable of escorting ocean convoys or defending itself against fighter bombers.

 

[1Big Rich]

I like Asahi of the JMSDF

They'd be about $900mil to a $1bil each.

1 x 5in
8 Harpoon canisters
1 x 32 cell VLS
6 12.8 TT
1 SH-60 + hangar for drones
Towed sonar array
2 x CIWS

30 knots, gallium-nitride radar, crew of about 230. A good GP design that could still fit in a CVBG....

My thoughts,

 

[Riain]

The problem I see with the Frigate sized alternatives is they become too valuable to risk. Can anyone imagine a 4-5000t billion dollar ship cruising up and down Falkland sound looking for mines by bumping into them and locating the enemy by bring shot at? That's what a Type 21 Frigate did back in 82, sure times have changed but that's the sort of expendability that makes fir a useful warship and useful warships win wars

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Found a better ship than the LCS, low cost, very shallow draft, simple propulsion system and lots of room to carry personnel.

Too slow, too fragile and no ability to cross oceans.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Oh and I suppose you would suggest we buy them from Carthage?

Well if we are not going to equip our fighting vessels with the means to defeat them then we might very well end up not having a choice but to buy from them.

Too slow, too fragile and no ability to cross oceans.

View attachment 518433

Mooooore mission creep!!!!

 

[Marc]

If the US decided it wanted a mean as hell coastal defence force and a 355+ ship navy, dropping four billion-ish on a hundred Skjold class corvettes could be fun. Eight "Wolfpacks" of four stealth corvettes armed with eight anti-ship missiles, a 76mm gun and capable of up to 60kts constantly patrolling both coasts might present a fairly formidable hurdle for surface ships.

Though you'd need a lot of oilers to keep them out there.

One of the best, if not best in class, the Skjold. Add on the Visby-class corvettes, and for a modest amount you get one hell of superb small ship navy.
Then, the United States would never/ever adopt systems not made here - politics and profits would prohibit that - and admitting that the Scandinavians do anything better than we do? Not a sorry chance.

 

[USS_Ward]

The problem I see with the Frigate sized alternatives is they become too valuable to risk. Can anyone imagine a 4-5000t billion dollar ship cruising up and down Falkland sound looking for mines by bumping into them and locating the enemy by bring shot at? That's what a Type 21 Frigate did back in 82, sure times have changed but that's the sort of expendability that makes fir a useful warship and useful warships win wars

The other problem is that the LCS is too vulnerable to anything corvette size and above, im pretty sure @CalBear will agree that sending them into any conflict zone could probably qualify as almost a death sentence for ship and crew. Not to say that frigates and destroyers will fare any better, but there definitely a better chance of survivability to those warships then what a LCS possesses.

 

[USS_Ward]

and admitting that the Scandinavians do anything better than we do? Not a sorry chance.

IDK about that, have you been to IKEA? The Scandinavians definitely have some nice furniture.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I think you mean 'modular' my friend, this ship is presented here in its basic form. The upgrades are cheap, easy to install and operate.

You know as well as I do that the Senate will tell the navy that they can use the gangplank when they ask for the money to buy Corvus for these ships.