AHC: Better 13th Century for the Byzantines

I'd say the Byzantines are more likely to make allies of the Mongols than enemies; seems their style.
I think that's more up to the Mongols than anyone else.

The Mongols probably wouldn't invade the ERE because of the simple problem of geography. Their army was based almost entirely on cavalry, and the ERE territories were very mountainous, especially if Bulgaria is included. Yes, the Mongols could fight in that terrain if they had to, but they must realise they can get more from being at peace with them anyway. Fighting in mountains in a difficult battle distracts from a comparatively easy battle against the Muslims to the south.

- BNC
 
The Mongols probably wouldn't invade the ERE because of the simple problem of geography. Their army was based almost entirely on cavalry, and the ERE territories were very mountainous, especially if Bulgaria is included. Yes, the Mongols could fight in that terrain if they had to, but they must realise they can get more from being at peace with them anyway. Fighting in mountains in a difficult battle distracts from a comparatively easy battle against the Muslims to the south.

- BNC

And before anyone brings up Mazinkert, the Turks did not want to fight in Byzantine territory; the Byzantines themselves forced them to.

Also, considering the entente the Mongols and Byzies/Nicaea had IOTL, it's perfectly possible for the Byzies to bribe the Mongols to keep out.
 
And before anyone brings up Mazinkert, the Turks did not want to fight in Byzantine territory; the Byzantines themselves forced them to.

Also, considering the entente the Mongols and Byzies/Nicaea had IOTL, it's perfectly possible for the Byzies to bribe the Mongols to keep out.

It would be easier ITTL to bribe them - but it does depend on Byzantine strategy. Assuming they retake Anatolia, if they keep their alliance with the Ayyubids, they may well work together to defeat the Mongols, which would be huge. (I don't see the victory as unreasonable to be honest. Mongols vs both of them? At the limit of their logistics?)

If they aren't allied with the Ayyubids, such an alliance could lead to a relationship not unlike that of Moscovy. The Romans pay a measure of tribute, and a combined Roman-Mongol force takes vast swathes of territory and hands it over to the Romans to police. Apart from the fact that the Romans are made into enforcers for the Mongols (and as such can snaffle a measure of tribute), this would be an incredible boon. The right amount of propaganda to convince the Levant and Egypt that the Romans are preferable to direct Mongol rule (Just look at Baghdad!) and you could buy the Romans time to establish proper control and fortifications in their territory. - Almost restoring the Empire to the position it was prior to Mohammed. Cue the eventual fragmentation of the Mongol Empire, and whoever rules Persia repeats the Roman-Persian wars all over again - assuming an alt-Il Khanate doesn't fall apart.

Apart from the territorial gains, the Romans becoming an enforcer/peripheral empire would do wonders for themselves (let alone others). The Mongol Empire provides direct and safe travel between Constantinople and Karakorum, and China. The transmission of ideas and knowledge, the boon in trade - assuming the Romans don't mess it up - would be incredible. Roman siege engineers helping in China? Trading with and enforcing control in Egypt/Ukraine? A chance for the entire region to recover after Mongol invasion and repeated wars? Could be a new era for the Middle East.

In fact, I'd love to see that timeline - Roman, Chinese, Arabic, Russian and Persian Philosophy all able to mix together? It would be a thing of beauty.
 
I just realised something.

Mongol Empire dominating the Roman Empire + China = Gunpowder.

Gunpowder + Roman Metallurgy = Roman Hand-cannons.

Roman Hand-cannons + time = Roman Line Infantry

Roman Line Infantry + time = Lots of pain for non-Romans.

hehehehehe. Cataphracts and Hand Cannons. That could be a timeline title.
 
I just realised something.

Mongol Empire dominating the Roman Empire + China = Gunpowder.

Gunpowder + Roman Metallurgy = Roman Hand-cannons.

Roman Hand-cannons + time = Roman Line Infantry

Roman Line Infantry + time = Lots of pain for non-Romans.

hehehehehe. Cataphracts and Hand Cannons. That could be a timeline title.
The Chinese have already invented hand-cannons by the time the Mongols invaded.
 
The Byzantines considered everyone born outside the empire to be a barbarian, so if any non-Greek power conquers the empire, it is pretty much inevitable that various Greek despots and strategoi will rebel in attempt to usurp the throne.

Yeah, but since the new Emperor would have the resources of Bulgaria behind him, he'd most likely be able to defeat them.
 
I just realised something.

Mongol Empire dominating the Roman Empire + China = Gunpowder.

Gunpowder + Roman Metallurgy = Roman Hand-cannons.

Roman Hand-cannons + time = Roman Line Infantry

Roman Line Infantry + time = Lots of pain for non-Romans.

hehehehehe. Cataphracts and Hand Cannons. That could be a timeline title.

The gunpowder was imported in Europe partially thanks to Pax Mongolica (which secured the trade roads from Europe to China). But just imagine a ERE Army built like the French Army at Castillon in 1453 ;)
 
The gunpowder was imported in Europe partially thanks to Pax Mongolica (which secured the trade roads from Europe to China). But just imagine a ERE Army built like the French Army at Castillon in 1453 ;)

That would be impressive, although finding the composition of that army took me longer than I'd like to admit.

With that army, at the turn of the 14th C - what do you think the Roman Empire could do with a North African invasion? I imagine it might still involve the Mongols, as I don't expect them to collapse till mid-to-late 15th C at the earliest, but would that also include Bedouin auxilaries to fight the Berbers?

A 'Mongol Period' Roman Army backed by Bedouin auxiliaries sounds epic to me, and like it would do well. The auxilaries fight the desert war, and the main army fights in the mountains and on the coasts where they aren't as vulnerable.

Could they win? Would the Mongols back it? Who would be in charge?
 
That would be impressive, although finding the composition of that army took me longer than I'd like to admit.

With that army, at the turn of the 14th C - what do you think the Roman Empire could do with a North African invasion? I imagine it might still involve the Mongols, as I don't expect them to collapse till mid-to-late 15th C at the earliest, but would that also include Bedouin auxilaries to fight the Berbers?

A 'Mongol Period' Roman Army backed by Bedouin auxiliaries sounds epic to me, and like it would do well. The auxilaries fight the desert war, and the main army fights in the mountains and on the coasts where they aren't as vulnerable.

Could they win? Would the Mongols back it? Who would be in charge?
Something you forget is that no way in hell could the mongols beat the berbers, The mongols are HORSEMAN, this means that they are limited to areas which can support horses. Desserts are not those areas. And even if the mongols could launch an effective invasion of northern africa (which is far from impossible) I don't think the Bedouin would support them. If anything the berbers are more likely to do that. The only supporters the Mongols would have would be Copts, Levantine Christians, Armenians, Druze, Shia?, and Yazidi's (+Christian city of Tikrit) None of those ethnic/religious groups are particularly militant bar the Druze and Shia
 
Something you forget is that no way in hell could the mongols beat the berbers, The mongols are HORSEMAN, this means that they are limited to areas which can support horses. Desserts are not those areas. And even if the mongols could launch an effective invasion of northern africa (which is far from impossible) I don't think the Bedouin would support them. If anything the berbers are more likely to do that. The only supporters the Mongols would have would be Copts, Levantine Christians, Armenians, Druze, Shia?, and Yazidi's (+Christian city of Tikrit) None of those ethnic/religious groups are particularly militant bar the Druze and Shia

The Mongols couldn't beat the Berbers themselves - hence why I pushed auxiliaries into the role.

I'm also not saying that this happens say 2-3 years after conquest, no, this could be a generation or two afterwards - where Bedouin are used to Roman-Mongol rule, and some choose to work for them, perhaps out of fear, or greed rather than loyalty. I'm also assuming that they'd rather work with/for the Romans over the Mongols after an event like Baghdad. Or perhaps they are offered autonomy as a client state in exchange for peace - it all depends on how a conflict with the Bedouin is resolved. It may require a generation of training subject peoples to fight like the Bedouin/Berbers to be practical.
 
I like the idea of a Byzantine-Ayyubid alliance myself, since before the Mongols show up, the two will have similar enemies (Anatolian Turks, Latin Crusaders, etc).
Its entirely possible....provided they can agree on how to split the holy land. Personally if they did push out their respective foes, i believe that some sort of buffer state would have to be set up in jerusalem (Neither would accept the other controlling it). Also depends on where the line of control extends, if its at the old Antioch border its a non issue, any further south and there will be tensions.
 

Deleted member 97083

If the Ayyubids allow pilgrims into their territory, then the Byzantines should be happy enough with Ayyubid control over Jerusalem.
 
If the Ayyubids allow pilgrims into their territory, then the Byzantines should be happy enough with Ayyubid control over Jerusalem.

I think they'd be happy generally with a return to something similar to the Alexios period. The best deal I can see the Byzantines getting there is that the Byzantines are in charge of keeping the Crusader States in line, and everyone has free access to the holy cities. No tributes from the Crusader States, but the Byzantines get a pilgrim tax on the Crusader State ports, and the Ayyubids on the land.
 
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