AHC: Bantu Andalusia

How could the majority of the people living in the southern third of Iberia become at least a third Bantu?

They don't have to speak Bantu but can't speak Berber, Arabic, any Italic language, or any Iberian language unless it's as a second language.
 
How could the majority of the people living in the southern third of Iberia become at least a third Bantu?

They don't have to speak Bantu but can't speak Berber, Arabic, any Italic language, or any Iberian language unless it's as a second language.

This is kinda far fetched, lad... ASB.

Now, a BERBER language nation... It is speculated one may have been spoken in the peninsula in a distant past, maybe... and well, muslim forces.
 
It's pretty much on the borderline of ASB.

Firstly, how are the Bantu going to get their; the Bantu migrated South for a reason, that being to the North were state-level societies and an environment unsuitable to them, and even further North desert and were overall behind in terms of the development of African peoples in general.

Secondly, while a very small minority may cling to Bantu languages, overall if you have a large Bantu minority in Andalusia, they are going to speak the native language(s) of the region, period.
 
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Thande

Donor
You're calling this ASB? Really? :rolleyes:

Easy. Muslim Spain defeats the Reconquista and continues according to all the clichés. Ruled by a dynasty also controlling Morocco, it gets increasingly involved in the slave trade, seizing control of much of West Africa and establishing a near-monopoly on slaves, much to European colonisers of the Americas' annoyance. However West Africa eventually manages to rebel with help from Europeans who by this time have decided to go anti-slavery, largely for self-interested reasons. The Almoravids or whoever don't want to lose the source of cheap labour so they start some slave colonies in southern and eastern Africa too, possibly with help from Oman (or taking over Oman). Decolonisation eventually happens and, as with OTL, the home country gets many immigrants from its former colonies that tend to migrate to urban centres with lots of jobs. Add in a demographic crisis and disgruntled immigration from the native Spanish/Moroccan population and bingo.

Some people's idea of what is 'plausible' is absurdly narrow. Half of OTL is ASB by that definition.
 
Simply said : no.

Elaborate answer : Well, maybe for a short time but without too much incidences.

Even with slave bantu-speakers in southern Al-Andalus proposed by Thande, it's likely they will be arabized quite quickly.
Arabisation, as using arab not only for "administrative" purposes but as well for cultural, religious, private, familial spheres was mandatory for rising socially.

The bantu is, on other hand, maybe going to influence more southern spanish/southern andalusian arab dialects (depending on who's the ultimate winner). But seeing how little the berber influenced these OTL (while they represented the main islamic minority in Al-Andalus during all its "life" and while they had their own holdings during or after caliphate), I seriously doubt it.

Actually, we had a rapport made after the capture by Alphonse III of the Balearic Islands on their population : 42% African blacks (apparently mainly from Gao region), 32% Arabo-Berbers, 23% Metis. Depsite an abudent toponimy with many berbers and african origins, it have little legacy.

In fact, the process of arabization is likely to be accelerated if ties severed between Bantu linguistic regions and Al-Andalus. Without these, the slaves will likely being integrated even more into arabic culture, while they would be already deeply immegred within (few odds to have andalusian elites talking bantu to their slaves to make them comfortable).

To resume, I think it's improbable to have bantu-speaking slaves at a worth of mention importance (it's simply cheaper, easier and quicker to just take slaves from Christian merchants, from West African trade partners, Nile river...).

But let's admit an andalusian power does in west African coast what Arabs did in East up to Zanzibar. (Again, unlikely because more expansive while Christian push regularly in northern borders).

These black populations would be likely integrated as the OTL ones did. Maybe at the exception of a black rebellion in Al-Andalus they could hope some autonomy but :
-It would be upon arabized elites most likely for recognition
-Southern Iberia being the economic and politic core of Al-Andalus, little chance to have a strong andalusian power to allow this

-Now special answer for Thande, cause it's interesting depsite some quircks-

Easy. Muslim Spain defeats the Reconquista and continues according to all the clichés
You're calling this easy? Really?:rolleyes:

Seriously, that's hard to do after the fall of the Caliphate. Maybe a POD before that then? You'll have still to prevent invasions from Northern Africa.
When managed to do that, you'll have to conquer or submit *Morroco while preventing Christian invasions in te north (Les Croisades Franques d'Espagne, are a good book to see the constant effort from them to push back the borders when they can).

Finally, with sucess not that easy to reach, you'll have the issue I wanted to point : arabisation (especially with a strong, surviving caliphate) of slaves.

However West Africa eventually manages to rebel with help from Europeans who by this time have decided to go anti-slavery
Isn't there a bit of contradiction with a surviving strong Al-Andalus? It would mean no fleet able to reach this far in Africa (or even in Africa short) and we know the relative efficiency of double-front alliances at this time (Crusader States and Mongols by exemple).

For anti-slavery, I think you'll agree it would be a bit of deus ex machina, especially regarding the relative indifference of Christian world OTL before slaves in Arabo-Islamic world. In fact, with a strong Al-Andalus, western christian are propably still the main trader of slaves for Andalusians as they were up to 1100.

The Almoravids or whoever don't want to lose the source of cheap labour so they start some slave colonies in southern and eastern Africa too, possibly with help from Oman (or taking over Oman)

Wouldn't be easier and cheaper, rather then taking eastern Africa trade control, to use their own : Ghana, Mali, western Africa, as they did OTL for gold and slaves? Of course, it would mean no-bantu slaves, or at least, not in worth of mention importance.
 
How could the majority of the people living in the southern third of Iberia become at least a third Bantu?

They don't have to speak Bantu but can't speak Berber, Arabic, any Italic language, or any Iberian language unless it's as a second language.

Yah, Thande, I don't think your scenario is at all practical. As LSCatalina says, they'd likely pick up a local tongue. Remember that Bantu is composed of many, many mutually incomprehensible languages. OTL, with them in a massive majority (especially in the Gold Mines) they had to create a lingua franca for the different nations employed there (Fanagalo). So even if Bantus were imported en masse to Iberia, it would be a slowish process and they'd use Arabic (probably) or possibly romance. It might be a creolized/pidgin version of either, but they'll be speaking something recognizable.

So, ASB may well be fair, actually.
 
Some people's idea of what is 'plausible' is absurdly narrow. Half of OTL is ASB by that definition.

Agreed: too many people confuse "ASB" with "Very unlikely according to my conception of history". The constant shouting of "ASB!" is one of the things about this site that turns off newcomers the most, in my opinion.
 
Even with slave bantu-speakers in southern Al-Andalus proposed by Thande, it's likely they will be arabized quite quickly.

As LSCatalina says, they'd likely pick up a local tongue.

Wait... but the OP said:

They don't have to speak Bantu but can't speak Berber, Arabic, any Italic language, or any Iberian language unless it's as a second language.

So probably the OP is looking for something much easier: a population that descends primarily from Bantu speaking peoples.
Only Zuvarq can clarify.
 
Agreed: too many people confuse "ASB" with "Very unlikely according to my conception of history". The constant shouting of "ASB!" is one of the things about this site that turns off newcomers the most, in my opinion.
I agree. Now, there's a big difference between that and LSCatilina's post - actually setting out why you think something is implausible. That opens up room for discussion; this is, after all, a discussion board. Jumping in with an "ASB!" one-liner doesn't really add anything, and doesn't help the person it's targeted against learn anything.
 
You're calling this ASB? Really? :rolleyes:

Easy. Muslim Spain defeats the Reconquista and continues according to all the clichés. Ruled by a dynasty also controlling Morocco, it gets increasingly involved in the slave trade, seizing control of much of West Africa and establishing a near-monopoly on slaves, much to European colonisers of the Americas' annoyance. However West Africa eventually manages to rebel with help from Europeans who by this time have decided to go anti-slavery, largely for self-interested reasons. The Almoravids or whoever don't want to lose the source of cheap labour so they start some slave colonies in southern and eastern Africa too, possibly with help from Oman (or taking over Oman). Decolonisation eventually happens and, as with OTL, the home country gets many immigrants from its former colonies that tend to migrate to urban centres with lots of jobs. Add in a demographic crisis and disgruntled immigration from the native Spanish/Moroccan population and bingo.

Some people's idea of what is 'plausible' is absurdly narrow. Half of OTL is ASB by that definition.

Eh, I can't see it. There are far too many holes in this story. To list a few:

If the Almoravids are a big enough empire that the European states are assisting in collapsing their grip on western Africa - nay, if the Almoravids are big enough to own land in Europe - then the Europeans are going to be warring them to deprive them of their east African colonies, too. If the Almoravids can't keep West Africa, they can't keep East Africa, point of fact.

I can't see the Europeans going anti-slavery "for self-interest reasons". Following "self-interest reasons" was the reason that for so long they were PRO-slavery. Sure, the Almoravid stranglehold on the slavetrade may make them harumph and talk into lofty terms about boycotting the slavetrade, but they cannot afford to not have slaves. Europeans don't cut it on the plantations - they just die, full stop - and the natives are dying at a ludicrous rate. If the Europeans turn against slavery, they might as well just pack in the whole "colonising south of Pennsylvania" idea and go back to Europe full stop. In fact, if anything this would just inspire them to attack the Almoravids and take their East African colonies, so that they could regain control of the slave trade.

In fact, if you say that the Europeans have helped West Africa rebel from the Almoravids, where is the conundrum? Europe just ignores the Almoravid slave market and trades slaves with their new friends in West Africa, problem solved.

Decolonisation happens as OTL? I think you need to meet Mr. Butterfly, my friend. In this world, where Europe has not been successful enough to take down the Almoravid empire, there's a very high chance that this means no European power has established dominance in America, which means chances are no colony has gained independence on a liberty-program, and so all-in-all I'm expecting the world to still be dominated to a large degree by autocrats. Even if Constitutional Monarchy has swept in, I can't see a big Decolonisation Era a la OTL because circumstances are just massively different. However, even if this did happen...

...you're positing that colonists from the colonies have set off for the motherland in search of a better life, and have consequently become 33% of the Spanish population? That's a monumental switch of population - bearing in mind that the Almoravid empire north of the Sahara probably has a higher population anyway than all of their East African colonies combined, you've essentially depopulated the colonies to produce this seismic shift. Can the Almoravid empire cope with this huge population migration? Even if Spain has a demographic crisis, or somesuch, that's a huge swing - bear in mind that Britain and France have maybe 10% of their populations originating from the colonies - and in France's case, it was a simple Algiers-Marseilles crossing for many of those. Would you really get that many Bantu migrating to Spain? Not to mention that the capital of the Almoravid empire is going to be in Morocco, so the majority of the immigrants are going to want to go there, not to Spain...
 
So probably the OP is looking for something much easier: a population that descends primarily from Bantu speaking peoples.
Only Zuvarq can clarify.

I really think this precision is irrelevant. It's like asking for black slaves to talk cherokee or medieval greek in 1700's Virginia

More than that : arab wasn't only the language of the masters and so, the only one worth of using with them, especially in the sheets of medieval slavery that was more "familial" (in the meaning the slave was integrated into the tribal/familial clientele), but it was the religious language, THE cultural language that (in Al-Andalus maybe more than any other place in the Arabo-Islamic world) that marked your social position and/or your will to rise socially.
 
Again, if you allow african lands languages and famillies as a whole, I can see a Berber language in Iberia, even starting witha distant POD.. Heck, it may have been the case, who know.
 
Again, if you allow african lands languages and famillies as a whole, I can see a Berber language in Iberia, even starting witha distant POD.. Heck, it may have been the case, who know.

The main Islamic population of Al-Andalus was berber during ALL its history with regular migrations from Maghrib.
It had several consequenses, in toponimy, in berber words in andalusian arab, etc.

As Berbers were demographically dominant, and often had dominant positions (military specifically, but you had several berber taifas and dynasties) it's quite expected.

Now, even there, the strength of Arab was simply too important (and berber being ultra-dialectised, without many KNOWN cultural uses) to allow the berber to be really different from the position of romance up to the XI century.

From all the minorities : only andalusian Jews had the cultural, linguistic strength before Arab in this context.

Muladi africans wouldn't have this possibility except with a great change in institutions and ideology.
 
The main Islamic population of Al-Andalus was berber during ALL its history with regular migrations from Maghrib.
It had several consequenses, in toponimy, in berber words in andalusian arab, etc.

As Berbers were demographically dominant, and often had dominant positions (military specifically, but you had several berber taifas and dynasties) it's quite expected.

Now, even there, the strength of Arab was simply too important (and berber being ultra-dialectised, without many KNOWN cultural uses) to allow the berber to be really different from the position of romance up to the XI century.

From all the minorities : only andalusian Jews had the cultural, linguistic strength before Arab in this context.

Muladi africans wouldn't have this possibility except with a great change in institutions and ideology.

Mind you, I offer another possibility, a more distant past.. Before Rome came, or those days. I know he meaned Andalusia, but I wanted to enlarge the thing. It oddly sounds to me more plausible, maybe - for berber languages at least.
 
Mind you, I offer another possibility, a more distant past.. Before Rome came, or those days. I know he meaned Andalusia, but I wanted to enlarge the thing. It oddly sounds to me more plausible, maybe - for berber languages at least.

Well, there is some speculation about Iberian being relative of berber languages.
Fragile at best, still one of the better theories avaible (while I've fragile bases in linguistic).

Some toponyms or names seems to have common roots in both sides of the sea, and some links were made thanks to Basque (assuming basque comes from an iberic or the same groupe than iberic, still discussed).

So, maybe OTL is the AH you had in mind. :D
 
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