AHC: Baltic Sea united into one, not-Norse empire

[Deleted member 97083]

With the latest POD possible, how could the Baltic Sea have been united by a Slavic, Baltic, East Germanic, West/Central Germanic, or Finno-Ugric speaking empire, with its capital south or east of the Baltic, and Scandinavia as a colony or peripheral province?

 

[LSCatilina]

The problem is more or less based on the later development of baltic political structures (especially in the East) compared to the rest of Europe. Before the constitution of a pan-Baltic empire, you need some development of eastern Baltic, and Scandinavian entities are naturally more encline to do this (being themselves more develloped and sophisticated politicall-wise than Wendes or Balts) : Western Slavs could be a relatively close second, but as it happened, domined by Scandinavian and Germanic polities, and probably unable to take on Scandinavia.

You'd need an early PoD (probably Antiquity) to bypass this or to turn it trough a (much) earlier devellopment of Amber Road, Volga Road or Dniepr Road. The world could be pretty much unreckognizable, tough.

A second, if a bit cheating, possibility would be a Germany-wank, where Scandinavian countries are clientelized/puppetized and where German expension over Baltic and Finland is more or less unchecked (basically what happened in WW1, plus competences and wish-fulfilling being real for [reasons])
Admittedly a Soviet-Wank could do this, but it's even less likely IMO.

Barring that, maybe turning Caroline Sweden as some sort of imperial confederation in later centuries (basically an United States of Greater Austria, only USGSweden) that wouldn't be Norse-dominated.

 

[NixonTheUsedCarSalesman]

The Battle on the Ice could have ended with a Teutonic Victory. That'd be a POD of 1242. It would see Catholic/German expansion into Novgorod and the entire area could become united under the Teutonic Knights, and their Secular successors.

The rest of the Baltic could come under the Teutonic influence when they create the Super Hanesatic League with teeth that one day sees the creation of a single Baltic Spanning empire, similar to the Swedish Empire of Gustavus Adolphus. Except unlike Adolphus they don't have to worry about the Russians because Russia is gimped in the timeline following the collapse of Novgorod.

 

[Augenis]

The Battle on the Ice could have ended with a Teutonic Victory. That'd be a POD of 1242. It would see Catholic/German expansion into Novgorod and the entire area could become united under the Teutonic Knights, and their Secular successors.

The rest of the Baltic could come under the Teutonic influence when they create the Super Hanesatic League with teeth that one day sees the creation of a single Baltic Spanning empire, similar to the Swedish Empire of Gustavus Adolphus. Except unlike Adolphus they don't have to worry about the Russians because Russia is gimped in the timeline following the collapse of Novgorod.

A Teutonic Order that is focused on expanding in the Baltic and in Northern Russia instead of doing it's original goal of subjugating the Balts, and instead weakens the Russians, will not be able to hold the Lithuanians for long, leading to a Lithuanian Russia.

So they would still have an Eastern neighbour to deal with, just not named Russia and with an even bigger blood vengeance against the Teutons.

 

[Daztur]

Simplest would probably be a Hansa wank.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

If Scandinavia isn't the basis of such an empire (eg. 1700s Sweden), then the best solution I can think of is having Hitler win/stalemate ww2.

- BNC

 

[Faeelin]

About the Vasas, when they ruled Poland and Sweden?

 

[MiniaAr]

I concur.

A single Vasa-branch holding both the Swedish throne and being elected as King of Poland/Grand-Duke of Lithuania is a good POD in my view.

You probably need a Sigismund Vasa with a tolerant mindset instead of his Jesuitic-self: Protestantism as Sweden's official religion and respect of the Golden Liberties (e.g. religious toleration) in the PLC.
Instead of fighting eachother, they can cooperate against Muscovy/Russia to get and keep Ingria/Karelia, and then such a polity could intervene in the 30Y war to get even greater gains than Sweden did: the whole of Pommerania, one or more Hanseatic city (Lübeck/Hambourg).

Then Denmark-Norway is a good war away from being conquered as well.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

If Scandinavia isn't the basis of such an empire (eg. 1700s Sweden), then the best solution I can think of is having Hitler win/stalemate ww2.

- BNC

If we're going to look post-1900 all you have to do is add Sweden to the USSR and you're done.


But I also agree that a united Vasa family is probably the most realistic toward completing the prompt.

 

[Hashoosh]

Simplest would probably be a Hansa wank.

The OTL Hansa fulfills this, though more through indirect than direct rule. After the Kalmar Union for a while into the 15th century the Hanseats dominated Scandinavian internal politics (dating back to the Peace of Stralsund) and had almost every non-Scandinavian town on the Baltic as a member of one of their constituent leagues.

Edit: Handsets are not Hanseats

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

I'm surprised nobody has gone for the Grand Duchy of Lithuania - if instead of being unified with Poland, why not have it retain its independence, as a Catholic country, and tell the Pope "Well done, the Knights did their job, now tell them to leave or submit". Lithuania can draw on its size to take the Teutonic and Livonian territories, and then work Novgorod and Muscovy against each other to expand into Russia.

Then turn on the Baltic Russia-Style. You've united the Baltic in the 1400-1700 period.

 

[Salvador79]

I suppose Augenis felt modest

 

[Salvador79]

No honestly, that forces lithuania t go maritime at an early stage. Big change.

 

[wtw]

I Also think the say have Peter the Great decide to march on Sweden. I honestly think from him on you might see Russia turn the Baltic into their lake

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

I suppose Augenis felt modest

Augenis? I tried to google, but all I got were maps and Lithuanian. Aš nekalbu lietuviškai

No honestly, that forces lithuania t go maritime at an early stage. Big change.

Not impossible. I mean, taking the Orders territories certainly creates the incentive, especially if the Lithuanians stay open to the Hansa. Hansa traders turning the Baltic into their trading monopoly, whilst Lithuania rakes in the cash to build up the navy.

I wonder, since Lithuania has Black Sea ports (however temporarily accessible) if they'd offload overseas trade concerns to Genoa/Venice. If they did, I wonder further if Lithuania would be open to further economic reforms. A large merchant class would be a boon. Hansan and Italian trade influences creating a native Lithuanian method of trade.

Tbh, I don't think (assuming a victory/takeover of the knights) it is outlandish for Lithuania to put effort into the Baltic. Support Swedish independence in exchange for control over Denmark/Oresund at the end of the war of Independence. Hansa Merchants/Lithuanian (and Litho-Danish) fleet, alongside Oresund basically gives Lithuania complete dominance over trade in and out of the Baltic, leaving Sweden in a position of hauling everything to the North Sea by land if they want to trade - or selling their goods to Lithuania.

The big question is could Lithuania and Sweden take out Kalmar Denmark?

 

[Salvador79]

Not outlandish, i agree.
ButI suppose the User named Augenis can say more.

 

[Augenis]

I suppose Augenis felt modest

To be honest, Lithuania having meaningful access to the Baltic Sea is a 20th century development, at least in OTL, so I wasn't hugely invested in this thread.

Although, if Silver Knight Lithuania won the Polish Succession War and then somehow took Sweden, hmm...

Augenis? I tried to google, but all I got were maps and Lithuanian. Aš nekalbu lietuviškai

He meant me. Now, on your proposal:

I'm surprised nobody has gone for the Grand Duchy of Lithuania - if instead of being unified with Poland, why not have it retain its independence, as a Catholic country, and tell the Pope "Well done, the Knights did their job, now tell them to leave or submit". Lithuania can draw on its size to take the Teutonic and Livonian territories, and then work Novgorod and Muscovy against each other to expand into Russia.

Then turn on the Baltic Russia-Style. You've united the Baltic in the 1400-1700 period.

Lithuania had numerous chances to accept Christianity independently, so this is possible, however, the main problem with this is that even if Lithuania was baptised, the Teutonic and Livonian Orders wouldn't simply leave if they were told to. In OTL, even when the Papacy declared that "the people of Lithuania are already Catholics and Pravoslavs (Orthodox)" in the Council of Constance, they still clinged on and stayed in their territories, sometimes still fighting Lithuania, like in the Battle of Pabaiskas.

Partially because they were much closer to the Holy Roman Emperor than the Pope, in whose eyes having a German state in the Eastern Baltic was beneficial. And in this scenario also because Lithuania would not have Poland as an ally to help knocking the Orders down a notch (it might sound paradoxical, but Lithuania with it's entire Eastern European empire was weaker than the Teutonic and Livonian Orders).

Of course, an earlier Christianization also means the Teutons gain less and less support from the West in the form of crusader reinforcements, so... I guess it can go both ways, then.

 

[Gloss]

Problem is that whatever country has the Southern coast from Lubeck to Petersburg they would have little to no reason to take Scandinavia, it´s nearly a wasteland for them.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Problem is that whatever country has the Southern coast from Lubeck to Petersburg they would have little to no reason to take Scandinavia, it´s nearly a wasteland for them.

It's got copper, iron, and other mineral deposits.

 

[Wendell]

Have the Biron dynasty inherit Lithuania.