AHC: Aztec Christendom

spendabuck

Banned
In school, we are currently researching the Atlantic Slave Trade, and today we read two letters from King Alfonso I/Nzinga Mbemba of Kongo to King João III of Portugal. I researched a bit more about the Kingdom of Kongo and its history, and I found it really interesting how the Kongolese emperors adopted Christianity and various Portuguese customs in their empire without being conquered until the early 20th century.

So, that brings me to my question; what would it take for a large empire in the New World like the Aztecs or Inca (Aztecs just came to mind first for the title) to convert to Christianity and adopt various European customs without being conquered (for a while at least)?
 
You'd need somebody other than Spain to rediscover the Americas, for starters, because the Spanish were after God, Glory, and Gold, while conversion requires a trade-focused colonial policy. The best chance might be in North America, with some kind of PoD leading to French dominance over British, and some large nation like the Iroquois being nudged into adopting Christianity.
 
The new world empire would need to be T the same tech level as the Europeans. At least close enough where the Spanish have to treat them as equals.
 

Benevolent

Banned
In school, we are currently researching the Atlantic Slave Trade, and today we read two letters from King Alfonso I/Nzinga Mbemba of Kongo to King João III of Portugal. I researched a bit more about the Kingdom of Kongo and its history, and I found it really interesting how the Kongolese emperors adopted Christianity and various Portuguese customs in their empire without being conquered until the early 20th century.

So, that brings me to my question; what would it take for a large empire in the New World like the Aztecs or Inca (Aztecs just came to mind first for the title) to convert to Christianity and adopt various European customs without being conquered (for a while at least)?

The case in the KiKongo nation relied upon Eurafricans who were genetically and/or culturally Creole people along the Senegambia. These people like Signares, grummetes and Lançados"portugee" identified as White and Christian which was for them analogous to whiteness.

They identified with the Portuguese and created basically a European overlay on an over all African socio-political-cultural structure.

There is a New World analogue who were collectively known as the Ladino though from my specific readings mostly were creole Africans in the New World but the term was also used for christianized and or mixed race indigenous peoples.

At any case the book "Eurafricans" is a really good intial read on the subject!

My suggestion is a linguistic cousin of the aztecs begin trading with the Spanish and over the decades a fusion identity forms that facilitates the integration of cultural innovative "creoles" into the elite Aztec families.

I do want to note though that they weren't completely Christianized or Western overall but that the KiKongo and Senegambian people aligned with such concepts, so bringing in Kimpa Vita like characters would be interesting as well :)
 
You'd need somebody other than Spain to rediscover the Americas, for starters, because the Spanish were after God, Glory, and Gold, while conversion requires a trade-focused colonial policy. The best chance might be in North America, with some kind of PoD leading to French dominance over British, and some large nation like the Iroquois being nudged into adopting Christianity.

Your idea for north America is pretty much my TL: donnacina's dream. Well, that idea plus a couple of other things.

The other comments about needing a euro-identified mixed-race ruling class.... well, see donnacona's dream....

But, yeah, it's a lot more possible in a region of the world where the main European interests are trade than in parts of the world (I. E. Mexico) where the colonizers are more interested in outright conquest
 

Benevolent

Banned
Your idea for north America is pretty much my TL: donnacina's dream. Well, that idea plus a couple of other things.

The other comments about needing a euro-identified mixed-race ruling class.... well, see donnacona's dream....

But, yeah, it's a lot more possible in a region of the world where the main European interests are trade than in parts of the world (I. E. Mexico) where the colonizers are more interested in outright conquest

They don't have to literally be mixed race, Whiteness and Portuguese identity was as much genetic as it was acculturation within Kikongo society.
 
well it's not the entire country, but i've written a bit about Aztec Christianity for my ASB ATL. one thing that i wrote in (though it's a bit fantastical) is that alot of Aztec Christians in this case have the thresholds of their front doors painted red to kind-of emulate the Passover (since Aztec culture, at least stereotypically, has alot to do with blood and those houses meant to be passed over were marked with lamb's blood). some other stuff i came up with is some identification of various Aztec deities with Christian theological figures, particularly some regarding Quetzalcoatl and Jesus as one and the same, they adopt a Christian- or Muslim-like attitude towards idol worship (especially false idols) and false gods after the whole "Hi, I'm Quetzalcoatl. Psyche!" thing
 
I seem to remember in my freshman year that in our one class, the lecturer said that it was 'easy' for the Aztecs/whomever to adopt/identify Christ with one/as one of their deities - sort of the same way it is for Hindus in some parts of India that worship the Christian God alongside Shiva and the rest - since the Quetzlcoatl myth shared several aspects with the Passion/Resurrection, and in some cases, the statues of Aztec gods were simply rehabilitated to emerge as Christian saints - I seem to recall an occasion where a temple was rededicated from the Aztec goddess it worshipped to Our Lady of Something and the statue of the goddess emerged as a Madonna, while another god's temple was reinvented as belonging to St. Christopher (not sure why that saint specifically).
 
Cortez's expedition was a) unauthorized and b) on a shoe string. It's success rested on several factors (including getting local allies), and could easily have been defeated at multiple points.

IF the Aztecs manage to learn several European arts (iron working, gunpowder manufacture, riding horses), possibly by co-opting survivors of a failed Cortez (like) expedition, then their disparity in tech would be greatly reduced, and their overwhelming advantage in number might let them win against any plausible Spanish force.

Of course, this requires incredible foresight on the part of the Aztec victors, who are as likely to sacrifice the surviving Spanish as co-opt them, and are likely to eat or lose the horses.

Even if the Aztec leadership DOES seize those chances, the incredible social upheavals caused by the successive waves of disease and the introduction of European tech might still doom them to being conquered.

Still, there's probably about a 1% chance (order of magnitude) of the Aztecs climbing the tech curve fast enough to preserve independence.

IMO, any surviving Aztec state is likely going to get converted, either from the top down (the Emperor realizes that the chances of a pagan state being recognized as equal are minimal) or from the bottom up.

There best bet is probably to convert to Protestantism - keeps the Pope from imposing Spanish bishops and control. And/or they could take a leaf from Henry VIII's book and have a locally controlled version of Christianity.
 
You'd need somebody other than Spain to rediscover the Americas, for starters, because the Spanish were after God, Glory, and Gold, while conversion requires a trade-focused colonial policy. The best chance might be in North America, with some kind of PoD leading to French dominance over British, and some large nation like the Iroquois being nudged into adopting Christianity.

Whoever of the european powers of the time who had met the High American Civilizations would probably have tried to conquer os puppetize them. It's not in the hispanic nature or something, it's that they had a lot of riches with a notizeable technolocial gap in a continent that was begining ot be settled by europeans. If anything it was a function of some elements from a common western european culture. Nothing to do with Quebec, for example, were the economical opportunities and the local populations(development and density wise) were quite different.

Meanwhile, the kingdom of Manikongo, while in a very strategical position, was met by the portuguese during their attempts to find a route to India, though their african explorations were only a stop, expecting for a bigger price. They had not intention to settle there, nor beyond the coast and not more that for a factory, not to mention the problems presented by the area for european settlers. They wanted to assure a friendly power in the hinterland.

So, in my opinion, either we change a lot the europeans who arrived to the Americas (weaker in relative terms, as Dathi said an option could be more time for the Aztecs to recover...etc, more open minded, whatever), or we are facing a geographical POD, where one place is a stop station and the other an end of the trip.
 
What about having Castile merged with Portugal, in that way, vassalization will be preferred like what Portuguese did to Wehali and Congo.
 
It's worth remembering that one of the Vilcabamba Incan emperors (Tito Cusi) accepted Spanish missionaries and converted to Christianity shortly before his death by illness (at which point the missionaries were killed, his successor remained non-Christian, and the Spanish had an excuse to invade). Have him survive, and you might have a nominally independent Catholic Inca rump-state surviving longer.

Aztecs are more difficult. It's harder to imagine a rump Aztec state surviving like Vilcabamba, due to the very different nature of the Aztec Triple Alliance. If they want to survive, they are almost going to have to convert at some point, but they seem poorly placed to recognize that and be able to implement the changes.

I agree that any European power who encounters the Aztecs is going to want to conquer them; that level of riches is too much to ignore. If Cortes fails, someone else will try later.
 
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