AHC: Axis Victory in the Second World War

Garrison

Donor
Would have been Halifax if no Churchill.
Not very likely, Halifax was too closely associated with Chamberlain and appeasement, Parliament wanted a PM who would prosecute the war more vigorously, which rules out Halifax. And honestly I'm not seeing any new ideas here, just the same suggestions that come up every time this gets discussed.
 
Would have been Halifax if no Churchill.
Not necessarily. He's a member of the Lords, and has to get support of the commons. He might get that as there was a Conservative majority in the commons, but he could never lead a government of national unity. This would greatly weaken the talent pool in government and - more importantly - risk alienating the working classes who have to do most of the heavy lifting at the front and in the factories during a war [1].
There were others available who could have led a government of national unity, not least Eden, but Bevin for example was well respected, capable and a good speaker.

[1] which also is a weakness of my own suggestion of using an interim leader while Churchill recovers.
 
Put it on a cargo ship that is disguised as an ally or neutral ship?
I read in one of the Panama Canal threads that ships were inspected before being allowed near the place. Not sure how strict the port authorities were for New York, Boston, Savannah, etc.
Does anyone know the procedures for a merchant ship arriving at a US port during the war?
 
Thing's that would have very easily been a war winner for the axis power's,

1 Much greater use of mario zippermayr's vacuum weapon's,

2 Retool the prewar light/heavy industrie's useing a fordism layout/mind set and retool the 1939-1942 war time light/heavy industrie's in the occupied territorie's,

3 Greater use of konrad zuse's super computer's for aeronautical development's and cryptanalysi's,

4 Not cancelling the development of rheinmetall borsig ag's model 1940 electrostatic proximity fuze in july 1940,

5 Vastly much greater use of lanz bulldog d9506 tractor's/crawler's in the army as well as in the farming/agriculture industrie's that then free's several million's of able bodied men/women for ues elsewhere and to fully replace horse's in the army,

6 Prewar three/four/six/ten wheel enigma's with irregular stepping in both direction's/more wheel turnover notche's/letter's encoded as itself,

7 Prewar discovery of the matzen oil field,

8 A fully mobilized wartime economy with three eight hour work shift's a day for seven day's a week in the light/heavy industrie's befor 1944 preferably in 1939,

9 Vastly much greater use of mass employing women in the light/heavy industrie's/farming and agriculture industrie's/auxiliarie's/home front that then free's several million's of able bodied men for the army's at the front,

10 Much greater investment funding prewar in to locomotive's/railroad car's/rail line's/other rail resource's/railway troop's as well as during wartime,
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11 Properly thorough prewar testing of torpedo contact/magnetic detonator's/t2 torpedoe's and torpedo depth keeping device's,

12 Take the captured dutch o 21 class submarine's snorkel and install it on all uboat's befor 1944 preferably in 1940,

13 Operation's nordlicht/gertrude/fischreiher never happen freeing up erich manstein's one hundred sixty four thousand strong eleventh army and both fourth panzer/third romanian army's as well as over half a million men/logistical supply tail unit's for operation edelweis's,

14 Japan goe's with operation kantokuen instead of the south plan.
Each step could be helpful, though extremely unlikely to be a war winner on its own, but the major barrier is that the German economy in the 1930s was already flat out building weapons, aircraft and pocket battleships, training vast numbers of troops from its cadre of 100,000, building Autobahnen etc.
Every extra tractor is one less tank or half track, every reform takes people and resources from developing effective combat formations, every km of rail is a bit less Autobahn.
There are also major cultural and idealogical barriers such as replacing science with wishful thinking and education with indoctrination, viewing women as living factories for making more Aryan ubermenschen - Kinder, Kuche, Kirche etc, - and the idea that competition was the best way to succeed (when it was often very wasteful and hindered progress [1]). These were barriers to at least some of the suggestions.
The alternate military decisions should also be considered against what was known and believed (and against what was possible and necessary) at the time [2].

[1] Competition has its place, but the success of the Manhattan Project shows that collaboration can be very effective.
[2] If the axis have access to our hindsight hats, why would the allies not also have access?
 
I read in one of the Panama Canal threads that ships were inspected before being allowed near the place. Not sure how strict the port authorities were for New York, Boston, Savannah, etc.
Does anyone know the procedures for a merchant ship arriving at a US port during the war?
It's more likely a spot check than a full inspection, but that spot check could be full inspection of a small number of vessels or a limited inspection of most vessels.
If nuclear weapons or materials (whether a dirty bomb or for assembly into a bomb once landed) were suspected, then Geiger counters could help once inside the ship, though unlikely to be foolproof.
 

marktaha

Banned
Not necessarily. He's a member of the Lords, and has to get support of the commons. He might get that as there was a Conservative majority in the commons, but he could never lead a government of national unity. This would greatly weaken the talent pool in government and - more importantly - risk alienating the working classes who have to do most of the heavy lifting at the front and in the factories during a war [1].
There were others available who could have led a government of national unity, not least Eden, but Bevin for example was well respected, capable and a good speaker.

[1] which also is a weakness of my own suggestion of using an interim leader while Churchill recovers.
In 1940 Labour were willing to serve under Halifax. Also it would have been easy to pass a quick law allowing him to at least speak in the Commons.
 
I read in one of the Panama Canal threads that ships were inspected before being allowed near the place. Not sure how strict the port authorities were for New York, Boston, Savannah, etc.
Does anyone know the procedures for a merchant ship arriving at a US port during the war?

I probably missed something previously in the thread. Why does it need to port and not just sail into the harbor? Then just set off the bomb?
 
In 1940 Labour were willing to serve under Halifax. Also it would have been easy to pass a quick law allowing him to at least speak in the Commons.
Britannica.com and other credible sources have Halifax declining Chamberlain's nomination as next prime minister, because he doubted his abilities as a war leader and his ability to lead from the Lords.
Labour had agreed to serve in a national government but had not named a leader.
So Halifax could perhaps be my interim PM in a scenario where Churchill is temporarily unavailable. Here he would serve from a sense of duty if there really was nobody else.
But really, with a national government, the smart move is to look at who in the new cabinet has the required speaking skills and military mindset - probably not Halifax - and they do the real leadership while Halifax marks time an a token leader.
But then, why not give Halifax only the job of forming the war cabinet and identifying the leadership team and identifying who will be acting leader now, withe the acting leader reverting to deputy if and when Churchill returns.
Short answer is that Halifax didn't want the job, wasn't a good choice and others were available.

Added a few edits to remove some confused wording
 
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I probably missed something previously in the thread. Why does it need to port and not just sail into the harbor? Then just set off the bomb?
The problem is getting close enough for the bomb to do damage. The depth quickly goes from 70 feet deep to 20 feet. A sub couldn't stay submerged and get close to Brooklyn, much less Manhattan.

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Naysayer here.
Appreciate very much the courtesy of a response. I am not sure it is as slam dunk as presented by you.
I’m not even sure they’ll have a solid enough oil supply to sustain prolonged combat operations in the USSR.
The primary source of German oil (as well as foodstuffs) is Romania. The Romanians have no replacement customers if it did not export to Germany, and Danube barge traffic is relatively secure. I do not envy the position of the Romanians in the OTL. They were indispensable to the German war effort and were rewarded by Hitler with having a quarter of her territory stripped and given to Hungary, whose contribution to the Axis was far less. Russian supply of oil was considerably less in 1939-40, but still important. The Germans will quickly capture the oil fields in Eastern Poland, and if the Red Army pulls back as you postulate, in Western Ukraine.
They have a hostile bloc breathing down their neck in the west which requires attention.
The best the British and French managed in the breathing down the neck department was the Phony War. Army Group C is quite capable of handling that. There is no evidence the Western Allies in 1940 had any offensive plans other than advancing to meet any German invasion of Belgium.
The Wehrmacht and German war effort has incredibly less resources and manpower available to them.
Not sure this is specific enough to comment. As far as total manpower, the Germans are better off - casualties in Norway, France, and Balkans have not been sustained; the occupation requirements do not exist; and there is no Afrika Korps commitment. On the other hand the amount of trained and experienced manpower is significantly less.
They have less combat experience and less equipment.
I am not sure the campaigns in the West are the right kind of experience for combat in Russia. The quality of intelligence available to the Germans was much higher, road networks, storage facilities for petrol and other supplies were well-known, and were calculated into sustaining a high tempo of operations. The USSR proved to be a much different and more difficult battlefield.
In the Heer, the problem will not be a lack of equipment, but lack of the right kind of equipment. For example, too high of a percentage of tanks are PzKw I and II; and the major lesson of the French campaign was the PzKw III needed upgrading to a 50mm gun and the PzKw IV to the 75mm/L43. However, Soviet tactical doctrine for employment of tanks is not much better than the French or British and the Germans in May 1940 have compensating factors. Among the most important is the T-34/76 is a year further from entering service. This is hardly a blessing for the Red Army.
Another significant compensating factor is the Luftwaffe. The top of the line Soviet fighter is the Polikarpov I-16 which is dead meat for the Bf-109E, and is 40 mph slower than the Bf-110C. It is backed by the earlier I-15 biplane in significant numbers. The MiG-1 first flew in March 1940, and will not enter production until the autum. Its armament of one 12.7mm and two 7.62mm machine guns is a bit on the light side. The main Soviet bomber is the Tupolov SB-2, which is also approaching obsolescence. The Sukhoi Su-2 is not much more survivable. The much better Il-4 went into production in late 1940, but in the OTL its engine factories had to be dismantled and moved to the Urals which halted production for a year. The Soviets will fight for at least two years, and possibly longer with the Germans holding complete air superiority. German level and dive bombers will attack at will with little more than light AA to contend with.
They adopt a much slower approach which allows the Red Army to easily pull back and avoid major encirclements.
In the OTL, Stalin adopted the tactic of trading space for operational and tactical advantage only after being forced to by German successes. I believe the initial Soviet response will be to launch heavy counterattacks to eject the invaders from Mother Russia. Moreover, in the OTL, hundreds of thousands of Russian troops surrendered under the very mistaken belief that living in German captivity was preferable to fighting for Communism. I doubt the Soviet conscript in May 1940 would act much differently until educated in the same manner by the Nazis.
 
Chamberlain was very ill at the time he resigned OTL and was very anti-Hitler, so better he resigns after the Norway mix up.
True, it is far better that Chamberlain resigns than Churchill. While Chamberlain was ill, he did not fully know it. He accepted the post of Lord President of Council and was one of the five member War Cabinet after his resignation. He presided over each meeting until laid low in July 1940 when bowell cancer was diagnosed, but returned in August for about a month before resigning on 22 September 1940, seven weeks before dying. On this OTL basis, if he were still PM, negotiating peace is his dying hurrah.

I can't figure out how Churchill can avoid blame for Norway in this scenario. I see him as the only major British leader willing to fight on after the disastrous spring of 1940. If you can figure a way, I would be very interested. However, the premise of this thread is the Axis winning the war, and that would run against the thesis.
 

Garrison

Donor
True, it is far better that Chamberlain resigns than Churchill. While Chamberlain was ill, he did not fully know it. He accepted the post of Lord President of Council and was one of the five member War Cabinet after his resignation. He presided over each meeting until laid low in July 1940 when bowell cancer was diagnosed, but returned in August for about a month before resigning on 22 September 1940, seven weeks before dying. On this OTL basis, if he were still PM, negotiating peace is his dying hurrah.

I can't figure out how Churchill can avoid blame for Norway in this scenario. I see him as the only major British leader willing to fight on after the disastrous spring of 1940. If you can figure a way, I would be very interested. However, the premise of this thread is the Axis winning the war, and that would run against the thesis.
He probably escapes blame for the same reason he did OTL, because everyone in parliament bent over backwards to avoid blaming him. If you read up on the Norway debate even when Churchill tried to take a share of the blame MPs, on both sides of the floor, basically refused to let him. Norway was a disaster, but it can be spun as the consequence of Chamberlain being too timid rather than Churchill being too bold if one was so inclined to let Churchill off the hook.
On top of that the British and French were winning at Narvik, it was the German success in the Battle of France that forced them to withdraw.
 
Appreciate very much the courtesy of a response. I am not sure it is as slam dunk as presented by you.

The primary source of German oil (as well as foodstuffs) is Romania. The Romanians have no replacement customers if it did not export to Germany, and Danube barge traffic is relatively secure. I do not envy the position of the Romanians in the OTL. They were indispensable to the German war effort and were rewarded by Hitler with having a quarter of her territory stripped and given to Hungary, whose contribution to the Axis was far less. Russian supply of oil was considerably less in 1939-40, but still important. The Germans will quickly capture the oil fields in Eastern Poland, and if the Red Army pulls back as you postulate, in Western Ukraine.

The best the British and French managed in the breathing down the neck department was the Phony War. Army Group C is quite capable of handling that. There is no evidence the Western Allies in 1940 had any offensive plans other than advancing to meet any German invasion of Belgium.

Not sure this is specific enough to comment. As far as total manpower, the Germans are better off - casualties in Norway, France, and Balkans have not been sustained; the occupation requirements do not exist; and there is no Afrika Korps commitment. On the other hand the amount of trained and experienced manpower is significantly less.

I am not sure the campaigns in the West are the right kind of experience for combat in Russia. The quality of intelligence available to the Germans was much higher, road networks, storage facilities for petrol and other supplies were well-known, and were calculated into sustaining a high tempo of operations. The USSR proved to be a much different and more difficult battlefield.
In the Heer, the problem will not be a lack of equipment, but lack of the right kind of equipment. For example, too high of a percentage of tanks are PzKw I and II; and the major lesson of the French campaign was the PzKw III needed upgrading to a 50mm gun and the PzKw IV to the 75mm/L43. However, Soviet tactical doctrine for employment of tanks is not much better than the French or British and the Germans in May 1940 have compensating factors. Among the most important is the T-34/76 is a year further from entering service. This is hardly a blessing for the Red Army.
Another significant compensating factor is the Luftwaffe. The top of the line Soviet fighter is the Polikarpov I-16 which is dead meat for the Bf-109E, and is 40 mph slower than the Bf-110C. It is backed by the earlier I-15 biplane in significant numbers. The MiG-1 first flew in March 1940, and will not enter production until the autum. Its armament of one 12.7mm and two 7.62mm machine guns is a bit on the light side. The main Soviet bomber is the Tupolov SB-2, which is also approaching obsolescence. The Sukhoi Su-2 is not much more survivable. The much better Il-4 went into production in late 1940, but in the OTL its engine factories had to be dismantled and moved to the Urals which halted production for a year. The Soviets will fight for at least two years, and possibly longer with the Germans holding complete air superiority. German level and dive bombers will attack at will with little more than light AA to contend with.

In the OTL, Stalin adopted the tactic of trading space for operational and tactical advantage only after being forced to by German successes. I believe the initial Soviet response will be to launch heavy counterattacks to eject the invaders from Mother Russia. Moreover, in the OTL, hundreds of thousands of Russian troops surrendered under the very mistaken belief that living in German captivity was preferable to fighting for Communism. I doubt the Soviet conscript in May 1940 would act much differently until educated in the same manner by the Nazis.
About half the Panzers in 1940 were Panzer 2, so not great in Russia, though probably good enough AT capability for the BT and T26. OTL something like 80,000 vehicles were captured from the British, and others captured from France, plus a whole load of weapons and guns. To balance this, there would have been fewer combat losses. It would be interesting to know the net gain from Battle of France (captured - lost in combat).
 

thaddeus

Donor
On 10 May 1940, the Germans invade the USSR with the pretext being the Soviet establishment of bases and troop concentration in Lithuania the previous October violated the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact.

There is a snowballs chance in hell they even come close to winning this scenario. It seems to be a blessing for the Red Army because all the major advantages of OTL 1941 for the Germans are taken away. I’m not even sure they’ll have a solid enough oil supply to sustain prolonged combat operations in the USSR.

The primary source of German oil (as well as foodstuffs) is Romania. The Romanians have no replacement customers if it did not export to Germany, and Danube barge traffic is relatively secure. I do not envy the position of the Romanians in the OTL. They were indispensable to the German war effort and were rewarded by Hitler with having a quarter of her territory stripped and given to Hungary, whose contribution to the Axis was far less. Russian supply of oil was considerably less in 1939-40, but still important. The Germans will quickly capture the oil fields in Eastern Poland, and if the Red Army pulls back as you postulate, in Western Ukraine.

my speculation is always that the Nazi regime needed to divide Romania (nothing personal Romanians) with Hungary and the USSR ((along pre-WWI borders, with Hungary occupying up to the Carpathian Mtns., Germany creating an Iron Guard rump state)

in this scenario all the oil would be under German control and they would not create a 1m man Romanian army, and the Soviets would be fighting an alt.Winter War against Romania instead of Finland.

just IMO, neglecting to do this had the historical situation that Germany was tied down with France while the Soviets got uncomfortably close to their oil supply (which could have been a much worse situation)
 
The truth is no mater what you do post WW1 you can not get Germany/Japan in a position to GORCE a surrender of GB/UK or the US. You could convince them the fight is not worth it but even that is hard. Mostly because the Actions of Japan and Germany proved you could not trust them. So treaties were worthless.

Any history that results in the Wallies truly losing the war needs so many drastic changes that it is no longer recognizable.
 

Garrison

Donor
The truth is no mater what you do post WW1 you can not get Germany/Japan in a position to GORCE a surrender of GB/UK or the US. You could convince them the fight is not worth it but even that is hard. Mostly because the Actions of Japan and Germany proved you could not trust them. So treaties were worthless.

Any history that results in the Wallies truly losing the war needs so many drastic changes that it is no longer recognizable.
Yeah the Nazis were only able to make the Wehrmacht remotely competitive by a ruinous level of military spending and Hitler was so determined to go to war in 1939 because he was acutely aware that at some point in 1940 British and French rearmament would overtake Germany's despite those nations spending a much lower fraction of GDP on the military. I think people tend to overestimate the size and capability of German industry in the 1930s and 40s based on its post-war performance.
 

thaddeus

Donor
we can at least make an attempt at a German stalemate scenario, cannot imagine anything to improve Japan's fate?
 
France and the UK bomb Baku in response to the invasion of Finland. This results in serious animosity against the Western Allies on the part of the USSR. The USSR starts playing the Great Game again against the UK in earnest, leading for an opportunity for Germany to obtain a peace in the west. The timing here is tricky, but if the UK is involved in a serious war against the USSR with Japan playing opportunist, and France has fallen, I could see the UK making a deal with Germany.
 
The primary source of German oil (as well as foodstuffs) is Romania. The Romanians have no replacement customers if it did not export to Germany, and Danube barge traffic is relatively secure. I do not envy the position of the Romanians in the OTL. They were indispensable to the German war effort and were rewarded by Hitler with having a quarter of her territory stripped and given to Hungary, whose contribution to the Axis was far less. Russian supply of oil was considerably less in 1939-40, but still important. The Germans will quickly capture the oil fields in Eastern Poland, and if the Red Army pulls back as you postulate, in Western Ukraine.
I don't think we can handwave Romanian participation in the Axis though. King Carol II was seeking a neutral foreign policy in 1940 and came to an understanding with the Allies. He was only forced to reorient after the collapse of the French in 1940 and the withdrawal of the British from the continent. With an Allied bloc remaining intact, I can see Romania maintaining neutrality and sovereign control over the oil supply. Which means the Germans will have to purchase it conditionally rather than appropriating almost all surplus for their war effort. The Germans also then cannot afford to seize it because that means war with the western powers which means defeat. Either way, lose untapped control of Ploesti as well as the advantageous border positions that the Romanians offered for Barbarossa.

The best the British and French managed in the breathing down the neck department was the Phony War. Army Group C is quite capable of handling that. There is no evidence the Western Allies in 1940 had any offensive plans other than advancing to meet any German invasion of Belgium.
That is fair, but I would counter by saying that I also don't think we can just assume that the Phony War would be a general phenomenon. It was produced by the specific anxieties and context of 1939-1940. After Poland fell, the full weight of the German Army was available to put to new operations. British and French commanders did not have an ally to 'relieve' and so felt safe in letting the Germans throw themselves against the fortifications. If we assume an Allied intervention in an East First scenario, I think we could see a more offensive minded plan. Especially as the war can start on Allied terms and is formulated specifically as a way to relieve the Soviet Union. Allied intelligence can study the war in the east and develop doctrine accordingly as well. We also should not discount the diplomatic plays being made for nations like Norway and Sweden here. The German control over Swedish iron ore could be considerably weakened should the Allies press the issue. Yugoslavia could also sign on with the Allies, especially if tensions with Hungary flare up. Even the Italians could be presented the chance to go with the Allies, which I believe would be tempting. Diplomatically, going east in 1940 would be disastrous and set them up for failure in my opinion.

I am not sure the campaigns in the West are the right kind of experience for combat in Russia. The quality of intelligence available to the Germans was much higher, road networks, storage facilities for petrol and other supplies were well-known, and were calculated into sustaining a high tempo of operations. The USSR proved to be a much different and more difficult battlefield.
Surely this is true, but I'm failing to see how a more methodical approach is supposed to help the Germans here. 1941 was a smashing success for the Wehrmacht exactly because it applied the doctrines from the western campaigns eastwards. Multiple massive encirclements and a feverish pace drove the USSR back on its heels. I agree with you that ultimately it led to unrealizable goals (A-A line was impossible in 1941) and fatal overconfidence, but ultimately a go-slow strategy is not an option. The German bloc could not win a slugging match with the USSR, and the entire premise of Barbarossa was that "the whole rotten structure would collapse". If it wasn't eliminated in a year, there was going to be serious trouble.

In the OTL, Stalin adopted the tactic of trading space for operational and tactical advantage only after being forced to by German successes. I believe the initial Soviet response will be to launch heavy counterattacks to eject the invaders from Mother Russia. Moreover, in the OTL, hundreds of thousands of Russian troops surrendered under the very mistaken belief that living in German captivity was preferable to fighting for Communism. I doubt the Soviet conscript in May 1940 would act much differently until educated in the same manner by the Nazis.
Soviet strategy will absolutely be immediate counterattacks. And I'm willing to bet some Soviet conscripts would act very much in the same manner. The thing is though that Soviet counterattacks and low morale were not the primary reason for the encirclements, it was the German pace and combat efficacy. If we take a much slower German pace with less resources and less combat experience, not to mention weaker starting positions because they can't use Bessarabia, then I am just not seeing how we still can even replicate OTL's success, let alone a Soviet collapse. If the Germans go slow and methodical, it will be their death. The Soviets can mobilize in an orderly fashion, move even more industry east in time, and learn from the front without such a rapid pace that caused the OTL paralysis. Lacking the trucks looted from France is also very decisive, and will stall German logistics very quickly. This topic has been discussed on this forum before, and it elaborates more on what I'm arguing here - especially in terms of resources. @ObssesedNuker sums it up quite well. It just is not feasible.
 
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