AHC: Autism Spectrum Rights concurrent with Civil Rights immediate post-WWII period?

This is quite a challenge since Autism Spectrum Rights has been going on for maybe only the last five years and primarily just in the UK.

Your thoughts please.
 
It could be done. Bettehiem gets damned for his causal thoughts, but his approach. A comfortable nurturing environment away from stress isn't a bad idea.
 
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...onia-shankman-orthogenic-school-animal-terror

``I read Charlie`s article,`` Sanders says, ``and I said to myself: `But everybody knew what Bettelheim was like.` ``

In fact, few did.

Blind loyalty

To the larger world, Bettelheim was known for his books and frequent appearances on TV and in popular magazines. Reading or listening to his poetic evocation of childhood`s joys and sorrows, few would have thought it possible that this seemingly compassionate man would pull an adolescent girl out of a shower, then hit and berate her in front of dormitory mates. Yet Alida _____ says he did just that, and another former student, Roberta _______ , recalls being summoned from a toilet stall for a similar thrashing. [Emphasis added, and my omissions for privacy]
Bettelheim was a rage-oholic. Straight up. Plus, he did not have the credentials he allowed other people to think he had.

He's very well know in (?) 1960s and 70s (?) autism treatment and theory. Basically, he's a dragon we'll need to slay from time to time. The problem is, if we slay him too much, people will have a very understandable human tendency to think, Oh, the guy can't be that bad. Actually, he is.
 
I just felt, the idea of a self contained system was intriguing. Like elizebeth moon's speed of dark before all of the cure hoohah.
 
I'm interested if anyone can meet the challenge, but from personal experience the uk has a long way to go even now.
It has been an enormous struggle even to get assessed. During the wait I've discovered my clinical commissioning group has largely ignored clinical guidelines, and while the target maximum time is 3 months the reality is three years and since taking control from the previous trust the number waiting has risen from 196 to 444 and in a little over three years they have assessed 255 adults.
Freedom of information requests and attempting to get answers from the ccg at least fill the time whilst waiting but
have sadly revealed the autism act to be full of laudable ambition but severely lacking in implementation similarly nice ( national institute for health and care excellence) guidelines mostly ignored.

I will follow the thread with interest, but need to keep a distance as its a little too personal and I don't want to earn a kick or worse with an inappropriate post.
 
. . . It has been an enormous struggle even to get assessed. During the wait I've discovered my clinical commissioning group has largely ignored clinical guidelines, and while the target maximum time is 3 months the reality is three years and since taking control from the previous trust the number waiting has risen from 196 to 444 and in a little over three years they have assessed 255 adults.
Freedom of information requests and attempting to get answers from the ccg at least fill the time whilst waiting but
have sadly revealed the autism act to be full of laudable ambition but severely lacking in implementation . . .
Thank you very much for sharing. I'm pretty sure that I'm also somewhere on the Autism Spectrum, or at the very least Spectrum-friendly or Spectrum-lite. At age 53, no, I'm not formally diagnosed, nor are most people my age going to be.

I kind of hope Autism Spectrum Rights follow the same general model as lesbian and gay rights. Yes, we need good-hearted and merely competent professionals to treat us with the same respect as anyone else. At the same time, I'd love to slowly, ever so slowly, build our own organizations. For example, we might challenge schools to multi-path rather than single-path requirements and learning. Might challenge HR departments to loosen up hiring requirements, or I guess multi-path that, too. And volunteers for direct services. For example, I'd love to have a vetted volunteer to help me with insurance, bills, taxes, etc.
 
Last edited:
I just felt, the idea of a self contained system was intriguing. Like elizebeth moon's speed of dark before all of the cure hoohah.
Alright, I can go for a self contained system, as long as I can also draw from other self contained systems and put it together my own way. :cool:
 
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...ia-shankman-orthogenic-school-animal-terror/3

For example, Orthogenic School patient Charles _______ had allergies, but was not allowed to take medication, even when overcome by asthmatic attacks. Bettelheim thought allergies were psychologically induced-a theory largely laid to rest by subsequent medical research.
.
.
.
Richard _______ , a photojournalist in _______ , remembers how he and a dormitory mate, both Cub Scouts, decorated their wall with a plaque illustrating how to tie knots. ``Dr. B said to the whole dorm: `Look, the two boys who are so twisted up inside show the whole world by putting knots on the wall,` `` _______ says. [my omissions for privacy]
Bettelheim did not have the credentials he implied he had, so he just winged it. But all the same, he certainly had a feel for the whole Freudian approach! Give the complex explanation. Seemingly a simple action or situation, but give the complex explanation. Especially if it indicts the person.

So, one POD might be if the Freudians got a run for their money and some real competition, say two other major schools of thought. And these two other take the approach, of course when we try to help a person we play to strength and are matter-of-fact about any deficiencies, what else would be do? But this contrasts with the "medical model" in which we focus and fixate on the problem.

========

And yes, while it may be idealistic, I tend to think if one civil rights movement gets rolling, it helps another and vice versa.

As far as equal rights for African-Americans, I understand that in OTL the U.S. armed services did desegregate military units toward the end of the war. Maybe if they had done this just a little bit sooner.

And there was the Supreme Court decision Sweatt v. Painter which said that segregated graduate school education, such as law school, at least for state schools, was not Constitutional. Maybe if this decision could have also been just a little bit sooner.
 
Last edited:
I'm interested if anyone can meet the challenge, but from personal experience the uk has a long way to go even now.
It has been an enormous struggle even to get assessed. During the wait I've discovered my clinical commissioning group has largely ignored clinical guidelines, and while the target maximum time is 3 months the reality is three years and since taking control from the previous trust the number waiting has risen from 196 to 444 and in a little over three years they have assessed 255 adults.
Freedom of information requests and attempting to get answers from the ccg at least fill the time whilst waiting but
have sadly revealed the autism act to be full of laudable ambition but severely lacking in implementation similarly nice ( national institute for health and care excellence) guidelines mostly ignored.

I will follow the thread with interest, but need to keep a distance as its a little too personal and I don't want to earn a kick or worse with an inappropriate post.

as long as you realise that clinicians cannot be magiced out of nowhere ... and that is one of the major challengiens of expanding any service - the lead time is in years if not decades - consultant expansion in Emergency medicine is a two decade plus story
 
as long as you realise that clinicians cannot be magiced out of nowhere ... and that is one of the major challengiens of expanding any service - the lead time is in years if not decades - consultant expansion in Emergency medicine is a two decade plus story

A very valid point, and data from one commissioning group can't be safely used to extrapolate the picture for the whole of the UK. The freedom of information for this particular CCG revealed that they weren't collecting the data on the growing list, were limiting the number of assessments they would allow the trust delivering irrespective of the numbers they had the ability to assess.
The issues are complex and data from one commissioning group cannot safely be extrapolated to give a national picture; just as the health service in the UK doesn't have an unlimited pool of resource either financial or of clinicians.
Looking at the original question, which "rights" are being referred to? I'm also unsure that Autism was well enough understood at the time to trigger the debate, possibly a P.O.D could be greater research. However just to consider race for a moment, what ever problems I have now and have struggled without understanding the cause during my life I have never seen a sign saying (no blacks, no irish,, no autistic) never been stopped from attending a school sitting on a bus, using a laundry etc the civil rights movement had far more overt obstacles to challenge and it is thanks to their courage and struggle the idea of specific protection for Autistic spectrum is even an issue.
Given the huge efforts needed to combat racism, sexism attitudes to discrimination against those with obvious physical disabilities earlier protection for sufferers of a condition which impacts in a wide range of areas to very differing degrees is going to be a stretch.
Attitudes will always lag behind legislation and I am reminded of a book given me to read at primary school (1970's), and also read in assembly who's title I doubt would be now tolerated in this post, the book detailed the hero triumphing over some tigers and its title and character names were a product of the period. Whatever the P.O.D it would need to be such as to create a sizable change in perceptions and atiitudes.

Sorry if I have made this too personal and objective

Dave
 
Looking at the original question, which "rights" are being referred to? <snip>
Dave

in the 1960s in the uk we were coming out of the days of institutionalisaing Children with learning disabilities ( and the assocaited demographic time bomb that is creating now the parents ofthe first generation of none institutionalised people with learnign disabilities are becoming elderly, infirm and dying off - often leaving these peopel in limbo - as although they were institutionalised - they don't have independent living skills - having in somecases been treated as a child their entire life )
 
There's a film entitled Dad's in Heaven with Nixon which is about a family and primarily about Chris Murray, who's a middle-aged guy on the Spectrum. Chris works as a custodian at a grocery store and a similar position in a hospital. And he has he own apartment.

Now, Chris's family is rich. Which helps, a lot. I don't think there's anyway he could afford his apartment just on his two part-time jobs. And it might be good being backed up by worldly and experienced family members, say when the apartment management is slow on maintenance or does a poor job which certainly does happen.

Chris is also making it as an artist, which is hard for anyone to do whether they're spectrum or not. I'd almost want to say whether someone is included in the full flow of society should not depend on whether they achieve something as unlikely as this.
 
I can't speak much on matters in the U.K. but there has been a long running stigma on mental health here in the United States. Also, there are quite a few behavioral health professionals, both civilian and military, who are not very familiar with anything related to autism spectrum disorders. It is quite sad really. I will be keeping an eye on this thread. If anybody has any questions (current psych major and behavior health specialist with the military here), feel free to send me a message.
 
Looking at the original question, which "rights" are being referred to?
okay, looking at my own experience attending public schools in the United States mainly in the 1970s, perhaps if they could cut me a little slack on sensory issues. For example, an air conditioning unit which rattles and which noisily cuts on and off.

For a person not on the spectrum, maybe consider doing your taxes if a punk rock band from playing 15 feet away. Yeah, you could probably do it. Would take a lot of energy, at the end you'd probably be drained and wiped out.

School also has a lot of chemical smells: a lot of different strong cleaners, occasional painting of the building, paints in the class room, magic markers, mimeographed sheets (no longer really exist!)

My energy would slump. And the attitude of some teachers and authorities seemed to be, Well, if you could do it earlier, you can certainly do it now, just willful . . . . . That seemed to sometimes be the perception of me.

Maybe sometimes if I could have just gone to the library without making a federal case out of it.
 
Returning to the initial question, the condition appears to be insufficiently understood in the immediate post war period, similarly Asperger's syndrome has only recently been stopped as a distinct diagnosis rather than a position on the spectrum.

in the 1960s in the uk we were coming out of the days of institutionalisaing Children with learning disabilities ( and the assocaited demographic time bomb that is creating now the parents ofthe first generation of none institutionalised people with learnign disabilities are becoming elderly, infirm and dying off - often leaving these peopel in limbo - as although they were institutionalised - they don't have independent living skills - having in somecases been treated as a child their entire life )

This only represents a partial picture many late diagnosis adults particularly those with high IQ function well until something else causes a problem, I obtained a degree ( struggle to tie my own shoe laces!:)), held down a job got married until a touching incident triggered a massive meltdown. Only then were my quirks and sensory issues recognised, as my Autism was interfering with attempts to treat PTSD and depression.

However getting back to the original challenge I cannot see a point of difference in the immediate post war that could produce the change the initial post seeks. There is a definite difference between the conscious discrimination based on political notions on race and the unthinking discrimination based on ignorance of the condition its effects and the range of things to use the terminology of the time "handicapped" individuals can achieve. [Consider the reaction if an asb transmitted footage of the para Olympics to audiences in 1946]
I'm not making the point very well as what ever the cause the effects of discrimination are the same. But to try and illustrate with an example, consider access to a bus racial segregation was a deliberate act, whereas the lack of wheelchair access was a result of not considering the possibility someone in a wheelchair would be traveling alone.
Any P.O.D needs to effect a change in understanding of the Autistic spectrum, change attitudes to disabilities in general in order to effect change in legislation and public perception quite a tall order. However far we think we have come in combating prejudice and discrimination the fact that any legislation is required shows how far we have to go. Maybe in 40 year time people will look with the same horror at our attitudes as demonstrated by television as we now view the racist, sexist and homophobic attitudes expressed in the 70's.
 
A high-functioning and famous person who has been diagnosed making a extremely important contribution to their field/profession during the 1970s or something could help raise awareness and challenge stereotypes. In OTL the best we have as actually being diagnosed would have to be Temple Grandin.
 
. . . making a extremely important contribution to their field/profession during the 1970s or something could help raise awareness and challenge stereotypes. . .
There are a number of people from history who are suspected as being on the Spectrum: Thomas Jefferson, legal reformer Jeremy Bentham (although we think of him as a philosopher), mathematician Carl Gauss, Charles Darwin, Jane Austen, etc.

And yes, from our own time, Temple Grandin is a gem. I've learned a lot from her speeches. And although I don't agree with her on everything, I agree with her much more than I don't. And we also have the actor Dan Aykroyd (of Ghostbusters fame! the original, that is), actress Daryl Hannah (of Splash fame), and the singer Susan Boyle, all of whom have publicly said that they're on the Spectrum.

And so, as far as activism and greater societal acceptance, we may see a two-part process:

1) Realizing that a lot of famous people are, have been, or most probably were on the Autism Spectrum, and have contributed a heck of a lot to society, and then

2) The realization that a person shouldn't have to be famous in order to be treated with ordinary courtesy and respect.

The Civil Rights movement for equal rights for African-Americans in the United States, various political activism for equality for LGBTQ persons, as well as a number of other civil rights struggles, have often used this two-step model. As well as a lot of other smart things, and just plain hard work.
 
Last edited:
There are a number of people from history who are suspected as being on the Spectrum: Thomas Jefferson, philosophy Jeremy Bentham, mathematician Carl Gauss, Charles Darwin, Jane Austen, etc.

That's why I specified that that the person had to be actually diagnosed in my original post.

I just keep rhyming.

1) Realizing that a lot of famous people are, have been, or most probably were on the Autism Spectrum, and have contributed a heck of a lot to society, and then

2) The realization that a person shouldn't have to be famous in order to be treated with ordinary courtesy and respect.

Definitely agree with you on this one.
 
https://disabledaccessdenied.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/the-life-and-times-of-hans-asperger/

Asperger published a definition of autistic psychopathy in 1944 that was nearly identical with the definition published earlier by a Russian neurologist Grunya Sukhareva (Груня Ефимовна Сухарева) in 1926.
Aha, if we had been a little more open to the ideas, theories, observations of the Soviets, maybe we could have gotten rolling sooner. I mean, maybe if we had been more bemused by communist rather than simply anti-.

We can still respond very realistically, actively, and strategically to such things as Stalin's deliberative campaign of starvation in the Ukraine. In fact, it's helped by not flying off the handle.
 
A high-functioning and famous person who has been diagnosed making a extremely important contribution to their field/profession during the 1970s or something could help raise awareness and challenge stereotypes. In OTL the best we have as actually being diagnosed would have to be Temple Grandin.
A problem, at least from my perspective, is that there is mostly a negative connotation to Asperger's disorder. The lack of knowledge on the matter is not only amongst behavioral health professionals but with the general public. Many people automatically think that since Asperger's disorder is a part of the autism spectrum that the person is automatically autistic, can't function, and, surprisingly, mentally retarded. I have actually heard the last part in person and had to immediately correct that individual.

I think that @GeographyDude has a good idea about more people being open to ideas from the Soviets. If, for some reason, Sukhareva were to leave the Soviet Union then that might be a good start. Maybe have her relocated during the war due to her being born in a Jewish family? Possibly have Sukhareva and her family leave due to fear of being purged?
 
Top