AHC: Austria-Hungary Builds a Strong Oceangoing Fleet

Delta Force

Banned
The Brandenburg class battleships were the first modern oceangoing battleships of the Imperial German Navy. A few years later, the Austro-Hungarian Navy was seeking to replace two obsolete ironclads with three new ships, but only succeeded in acquiring the three Monarch class coastal defense ships. It wasn't until the dreadnought arms race began that Austria-Hungary attempted to build a strong oceangoing fleet, and plans for a fleet of twelve consisting of twelve battleships and four armored cruisers were approved. However, there were problems with a lack of infrastructure and the Austrian and Hungarian parliaments (as an imperial institution of the Dual Monarchy, both had to approve funding for the Austro-Hungarian Navy) battled over costs and construction locations. As a result, the Radetzky class was completed as a semi-dreadnought instead of to a dreadnought design as suggested by Siegfried Popper due to lack of dock facilities capable of handling anything larger than 16,000 tons displacement (Popper thought it would be difficult to get funding for docks). Ironically enough, approval of the Tegetthoff class required financing the construction of an entire shipyard in the Hungarian part of the Empire, because Hungary insisted on having a share of the production.

Although Austria-Hungary didn't have much of a naval tradition, it had some advocates, including Archduke Franz Ferdinand. It also had a strong armaments and metallurgy industry, including the large Whitehead torpedo factory at Fiume and Škoda Works in Czechoslovakia, which most prominently produced armament, armor, and metal products for the Austro-Hungarian Navy during and (as export) for the Royal Navy during the 1920s and 1930s.

Given the large historical improvements in the Austro-Hungarian Navy during the dreadnought era, is it possible that something might have been done earlier to make it into a powerful oceangoing fleet?
 
The problem is that an oceangoing fleet doesn't help with the ethnic strife in the AH Empire. I just don't see them having the money to do it. If they were more internally stable, maybe but that would have to be your first POD, IMO.
 
Sorry to be pedantic, but oceangoing would mean the Atlantic or Indian Oceans and I think that AH operating in the Med would be a big enough challenge.

I think the biggest hurdle is the lack of enemies until very late in the game. IIRC Italy was assumed to be part of the CP until she didn't declare war, and the Balkan wars occurred too late for AH to react to them with naval construction.

Change these things and AH may react by building a naval force to operate against Italy and the Med flank of the new Balkan states.
 
Maximilian was apparently quite pro navy, for obvious reasons. Maybe keep him about somehow instead of becoming a governor and then Mexican emperor

His bedroom at Miramare does rather suggest he never lost his love for the navy life
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
The biggest enemy to Austro-Hungarian naval is simple geography. It's easy to block the Otranto Strait.
 
Given the large historical improvements in the Austro-Hungarian Navy during the dreadnought era, is it possible that something might have been done earlier to make it into a powerful oceangoing fleet?

Yes there is. I came across a reference to it in a book about Corfu. At the Congress of Vienna the Austrians were offered the island of Corfu, but turned down it. A major naval base there would be its jumping off point to the rest of the Mediterranean.
 

Delta Force

Banned
Sorry to be pedantic, but oceangoing would mean the Atlantic or Indian Oceans and I think that AH operating in the Med would be a big enough challenge.

I think the biggest hurdle is the lack of enemies until very late in the game. IIRC Italy was assumed to be part of the CP until she didn't declare war, and the Balkan wars occurred too late for AH to react to them with naval construction.

Change these things and AH may react by building a naval force to operate against Italy and the Med flank of the new Balkan states.

There actually was something of a naval rivalry between Austria-Hungary and Italy, which drove a naval and dreadnought arms race between the two. They might have been allies, but they didn't trust each other.

From what I've read, A-H had pretty horrible finances up until it imploded.

Even if the will was there, I'm not sure the money was?

I don't know if funding was an issue. Imperial institutions and legislation were difficult to achieve because both the Austrian and Hungarian parliaments had to approve. Royal institutions and legislation only required the involvement of their respective parliament, which is why the royal Austrian and Hungarian armies were well equipped relative to the imperial Austro-Hungarian Navy.

Maximilian was apparently quite pro navy, for obvious reasons. Maybe keep him about somehow instead of becoming a governor and then Mexican emperor

His bedroom at Miramare does rather suggest he never lost his love for the navy life

Maximilian staying in Austria would be interesting for more reasons than that.

The biggest enemy to Austro-Hungarian naval is simple geography. It's easy to block the Otranto Strait.

Might Austria-Hungary have been able to lease or purchase an Ottoman port to avoid that issue? The Berlin-Baghdad Railway could provide a ground link.
 
There actually was something of a naval rivalry between Austria-Hungary and Italy, which drove a naval and dreadnought arms race between the two. They might have been allies, but they didn't trust each other.



I don't know if funding was an issue. Imperial institutions and legislation were difficult to achieve because both the Austrian and Hungarian parliaments had to approve. Royal institutions and legislation only required the involvement of their respective parliament, which is why the royal Austrian and Hungarian armies were well equipped relative to the imperial Austro-Hungarian Navy.



Maximilian staying in Austria would be interesting for more reasons than that.



Might Austria-Hungary have been able to lease or purchase an Ottoman port to avoid that issue? The Berlin-Baghdad Railway could provide a ground link.


The real problem with creating a powerful Austro-Hungarian navy is that there was no real reason to. Sure a large, modern navy could provide prestige and colonial security but not much else. Austria was a land power with no colonial or overseas obligations, with a navy large enough to meet her needs. There would never be a real reason to go on a building spree. Now increasing and modernizing the common army, a huge yes to that, but the navy, no real pressing or major reason.
 
Another good POD would be a longer lifer for Wilhelm von Tegetthoff. He died of pneumonia at age 43, even an additional 20 years would have consequences.
 

Delta Force

Banned
The real problem with creating a powerful Austro-Hungarian navy is that there was no real reason to. Sure a large, modern navy could provide prestige and colonial security but not much else. Austria was a land power with no colonial or overseas obligations, with a navy large enough to meet her needs. There would never be a real reason to go on a building spree. Now increasing and modernizing the common army, a huge yes to that, but the navy, no real pressing or major reason.

People said the same thing about Germany going into World War I. Just because a nation doesn't have overseas territories doesn't mean that it doesn't have overseas interests. Austria-Hungary needs a fleet capable of defending its coastlines from enemy attack. Being able to defend trade in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Berlin-Baghdad Railway (from a base beyond the Otranto Strait) is a desirable goal as well, as is being able to threaten enemy commerce.

Another good POD would be a longer lifer for Wilhelm von Tegetthoff. He died of pneumonia at age 43, even an additional 20 years would have consequences.

The mandatory retirement age in the Austro-Hungarian Navy was 70 years, so Tegetthoff would have been eligible to serve until late 1897. That could be a major PoD, especially since Tegetthoff seems to have been a resourceful and innovative leader. The Battle of Lissa did bring back the naval ram, but it was an unusual tactic that Tegetthoff adopted because of the situation his fleet was in.
 
People said the same thing about Germany going into World War I. Just because a nation doesn't have overseas territories doesn't mean that it doesn't have overseas interests. Austria-Hungary needs a fleet capable of defending its coastlines from enemy attack. Being able to defend trade in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Berlin-Baghdad Railway (from a base beyond the Otranto Strait) is a desirable goal as well, as is being able to threaten enemy commerce.

Considering how useless the German navy proved to be in WWI, you kinda proved my point. The Navy Austria-Hungary had was perfectly suitable for her interests abroad at home. According to Wikipedia, in 1914 it had 4 Dreadnoughts, 9 Pre-dreadnoughts, 4 Coastal defence ships, 3 Armoured cruisers, 6 Light cruisers, 30 Destroyers, 36 Torpedo boats and 6 Submarines. Maybe they could have used a few more cruisers, but other than that the Navy was remarkably modern and just large enough to meet Austro-Hungarian needs. They never had trouble trade-wise, were able to project power (the November 1897 incident at Mersina comes to mind) and were able to easily defend against any Italian attack. Maybe in hindsight they could have used a larger fleet, but in regards to Austro-Hungarian foreign policy up to 1914, they had a perfectly antiquate navy,
 

Delta Force

Banned
Considering how useless the German navy proved to be in WWI, you kinda proved my point. The Navy Austria-Hungary had was perfectly suitable for her interests abroad at home. According to Wikipedia, in 1914 it had 4 Dreadnoughts, 9 Pre-dreadnoughts, 4 Coastal defence ships, 3 Armoured cruisers, 6 Light cruisers, 30 Destroyers, 36 Torpedo boats and 6 Submarines. Maybe they could have used a few more cruisers, but other than that the Navy was remarkably modern and just large enough to meet Austro-Hungarian needs. They never had trouble trade-wise, were able to project power (the November 1897 incident at Mersina comes to mind) and were able to easily defend against any Italian attack. Maybe in hindsight they could have used a larger fleet, but in regards to Austro-Hungarian foreign policy up to 1914, they had a perfectly antiquate navy,

From the perspective of a fleet in being and tying down Allied resources, the German and Austro-Hungarian fleets did an excellent job. They were even able to go on the offensive and achieve several tactical victories. However, I think there was the potential for the Austro-Hungarian Navy and its naval industry to have been more prominent than they were. For a relatively small increase in funding, the Austro-Hungarian Navy could have had Radetzky class dreadnoughts instead of semi-dreadnoughts and the Tegetthoff class could have been built to a larger and higher quality design (the Ersatz Monarch class was a superdreadnought development of the original Tegetthoff class design).
 
The issue is that navies tend to be expensive, and can absorb a significant percentage of "technical" enlisted folks as a proportion of the force (once you get steel navies not wooden). A-H under any circumstances has a limited need for a large navy, unlike Germany they had no overseas colonies at all and not much of a merchant fleet. As noted they were severely geographically constrained - if either Italy or Greece allows an enemy to use facilities or is against A-H they are pretty bottled up.

Of all the "major" powers in the 19th & early 20th century A-H had the least reason to get in much of a naval race. Perhaps they could have spent what they did in a better way, but a more serious navy than they had...why
 
From the perspective of a fleet in being and tying down Allied resources, the German and Austro-Hungarian fleets did an excellent job. They were even able to go on the offensive and achieve several tactical victories. However, I think there was the potential for the Austro-Hungarian Navy and its naval industry to have been more prominent than they were. For a relatively small increase in funding, the Austro-Hungarian Navy could have had Radetzky class dreadnoughts instead of semi-dreadnoughts and the Tegetthoff class could have been built to a larger and higher quality design (the Ersatz Monarch class was a superdreadnought development of the original Tegetthoff class design).

I'm not sure that one could get the better designed Tegetthoff. Siegfried Popper was probably one of the most talented naval architects the AH had.
 

Delta Force

Banned
The issue is that navies tend to be expensive, and can absorb a significant percentage of "technical" enlisted folks as a proportion of the force (once you get steel navies not wooden). A-H under any circumstances has a limited need for a large navy, unlike Germany they had no overseas colonies at all and not much of a merchant fleet. As noted they were severely geographically constrained - if either Italy or Greece allows an enemy to use facilities or is against A-H they are pretty bottled up.

True, but Austria-Hungary has an interest in defending its own coastline. Going forward into the 1910s and beyond, Austria-Hungary is also going to have trade and national security interests in mind, since they will probably want a strong(er) fleet to protect the Berlin-Baghdad Railway and perhaps operate in the Persian Gulf. A leased or purchased Ottoman port beyond the Otranto Strait would be vital for protecting this, and while Germany would likely work closely with them, Austria-Hungary would want to play a role too.

Of all the "major" powers in the 19th & early 20th century A-H had the least reason to get in much of a naval race. Perhaps they could have spent what they did in a better way, but a more serious navy than they had...why

They could have had a fleet with more of the light assets they historically used to go on the offense in World War I, such as destroyers, light cruisers, and submarines. Looking beyond that though, they would need a fleet to protect the international interests that would be emerging as the Empire continued to industrialize. It would want to protect Ottoman petroleum supplies and the the Berlin-Baghdad Railway, as well as general commerce for exports of agricultural and industrial goods.

I'm not sure that one could get the better designed Tegetthoff. Siegfried Popper was probably one of the most talented naval architects the AH had.

The historical Tegetthoff is something of a Tegetthoff "lite" (see post below)
 

Delta Force

Banned
Regarding the Radetzky, it's ironic that Popper argued in favor of building new docks and going with the dreadnought design, while Montecuccoli told him that such a proposal would never be approved. The facilities only allowed for ships of 16,000 tons displacement to be built, so they were going to have to be expanded eventually if Austria-Hungary wanted to keep up with the other powers. I don't know when the arguments were taking place, but around two years Montecuccoli himself went before Austrian and Hungarian parliamentary representatives and presented plans dreadnoughts with 18,000 to 19,000 ton displacement. They debated for a while, and decided to order four 20,000 ton dreadnoughts and expand the facilities in Rijeka so that one of the dreadnoughts could be built there. It seems that the Radetzky class might have had a chance to have been built as dreadnoughts if Montecuccoli had been willing to advocate for the new facilities, because not only were they built two years later, but an entire shipyard was too (link here):

The Austrian commander of the fleet , admiral Rudolf Montecuccoli Polinago, had on February 20th 1908, during the meeting of parliament representatives, announced the building of battleships of 18 - 19, 000 tons of displacement.

When the Hungarians were promised equal cooperation in the building of the fleet, the Hungarian parliament agreed to finance the new fleet programme in April 1911. The programme included 4 battleships, 3 cruisers, 6 destroyers, 12 torpedo-boats and 4 submarines. In order to fulfil the terms of a secret contract with the Hungarians, the Hungarian dreadnought was to be built in the Hungarian part of the Empire and using mainly Hungarian material (except guns, turrets and armour). The Hungarian access to the sea was in Rijeka, a Croatian town that Hungary annexed in the late 19th century. The shipyard Danubius in Rijeka had previously built only torpedo-boats and destroyers, but during April 1911 one battleship and two cruisers were ordered. The battleship was to be finished by July 30th 1914, but that was not possible, because the shipyard itself had to be built! Therefore, SMS (Seiner Majestat Schiff) Szent István was finished seventeen months after the agreed deadline, in the Navy arsenal in Pula, where it was hauled after the beginning of the World War I.

With those facilities, the two dreadnought designs proposed in 1905 become possible (reformatted from Wikipedia):

  1. The first design was armed with four 28 cm (11 in) guns in two twin turrets, four 24 cm (9.4 in) guns in single turrets, and eight 19 cm (7.5 in) guns in casemates.
  2. The second design retained the 28 and 24 cm guns as in the first version, though altered the tertiary guns to twelve 10 cm guns.
  3. The third design, representative of the new dreadnought type of battleship that was being contemplated in other navies, featured eight 28 cm guns in four twin turrets, one fore, one aft, and two wing turrets. The heavy secondary guns were dispensed with altogether, and the light-caliber guns were increased to sixteen 10 cm guns.
  4. The fourth design was a variation on the third type; the eight 28 cm guns were replaced by six 30.5 cm (12 in) guns, in two twin turrets and two single turrets. The 10 cm guns remained the same.
  5. The final design mounted four 30.5 cm guns in two twin turrets, eight 19 cm guns in four wing turrets, and twelve 10 cm guns in casemates.

If Montecuccoli gets the facility improvements during the earlier budget battle, he doesn't have to worry about them again when it comes time for 1908. That should make it much easier to push through the original Tegetthoff designed by Popper (link here):

When Popper showed preliminary sketches of ships 580 feet long (as dictated by the laws of weight distribution with such a heavy armament), Adm. Montecuccoli angrily threw them back at him and told him to redesign smaller ships, ships that the parsimonious Austro-Hungarian treasury might find it possible to fund. The redesigned ships were cut down by one deck forward, shortened to under 500 feet, but carried an undiluted main armament. Vienna's Reichstag approved partial funding of the four ships and green-lighted the project late in 1908.

But the reduced size of the hulls was only the beginning of the shortcuts taken. The reduced length impaired the ships' stability and seaworthiness in anything heavier than a flat calm. And the vessels' watertight subdivision was very sketchy. The main feature was a longitudinal bulkhead -- a watertight wall running down the centerline from bow to stern. In practice this proved to be a dangerous expedient when not combined with a fine network of side-to-side compartments. And -- again for reasons of cost -- the lateral watertight bulkheads were restricted to the ends of the main boiler rooms and engine rooms, making for very large and long watertight compartments. As seen in numerous incidents during World War I, ships so divided showed a distressing tendency to capsize, as all the water flooding in from an injury to one side was trapped on one side by the longitudinal bulkhead. The cases of HMS Victoria, the Lusitania, and the Live Bait cruisers all come to mind; though there were many more since the longitudinal bulkhead was a standard feature of British and French warship design in the pre-dreadnought era.

A mission was also sent to Germany for reccomendations on underwater protection, but the Tegetthoff "lite" design was finalized before the report was even read.

Simply from these butterflies alone, Austria-Hungary would have had a larger and more potent dreadnought force.
 
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