AHC: Asian Industrial Revolution

[zeppelinair]

Japan's in a fairly unique position insofar as relatively accessible resource rich areas go, though, because it was on the outer edge of the civilised.world with relatively untouched.unsettled territory nearby. What about Siam or Mysore or Travancore or the Sikh Empire? They, like most of the Asian states aren't going to have the advantages Japan did.

"relatively untouched and unsettled territory"? do you mean places like Sakhalin and Siberia? Or do you mean Taiwan and Korea? Those two are regions in two very distinct categories, and it would be wiser to specify which territory we are talking about...
And yes, most countries did not have the advantages Japan had. That's why we want to list nations that do have crucial advantages making it easier for industrialisation. Industrialisation within the 18th and 19th centuries, of course.

 

[Faeelin]

Japan's in a fairly unique position insofar as relatively accessible resource rich areas go, though, because it was on the outer edge of the civilised.world with relatively untouched.unsettled territory nearby. What about Siam or Mysore or Travancore or the Sikh Empire? They, like most of the Asian states aren't going to have the advantages Japan did.

I wonder if Siam's best model for industrialization is Scandinvia (or New England); underpopulated countries with a lot of lumber and waterpower.

 

[mosodake]

"relatively untouched and unsettled territory"? do you mean places like Sakhalin and Siberia? Or do you mean Taiwan and Korea? Those two are regions in two very distinct categories, and it would be wiser to specify which territory we are talking about...

Taiwan before the mid 17th century was much more like Sakhalin and Siberia than Korea.

 

[zeppelinair]

Taiwan before the mid 17th century was much more like Sakhalin and Siberia than Korea.

of course. but then, that's before the mid-17th century. I believe we're talking about the 18th-19th centuries?

 

[RousseauX]

Japan's in a fairly unique position insofar as relatively accessible resource rich areas go, though, because it was on the outer edge of the civilised.world with relatively untouched.unsettled territory nearby. What about Siam or Mysore or Travancore or the Sikh Empire? They, like most of the Asian states aren't going to have the advantages Japan did.

The first couple of rounds of Japanese industrialization occurred in the 1870s-1890s and was done without colonial territories to draw resources from.

The advantage Japan had wasn't resources or access to them: it was having a unified political elite which really wanted to industrialize and modernize.

 

[Dunning Kruger]

In addition to education I would suggest a form of property rights is useful. I seem to recall Eli Whitney and James Watt, among others, benefited from their inventions via having patents. Did Japan or anyone else have incentives in place to reward entrepenuers for their inventions?

 

[Flocculencio]

The first couple of rounds of Japanese industrialization occurred in the 1870s-1890s and was done without colonial territories to draw resources from.

The advantage Japan had wasn't resources or access to them: it was having a unified political elite which really wanted to industrialize and modernize.

Yes, but am I right in saying that sufficient local coal resources were present to fuel this industrialisation? And that it was only later that Japan needed to expand to get the resources to feed its growing economy? If Japan had no accessible anthracite coal do you think it'd have been able to jump start an industrial economy like it did?

If you look at a lot of other Asian states e.g. Siam or the South Indian states, there isn't even that initially accessible load of resources to begin the process.

 

[Flocculencio]

"relatively untouched and unsettled territory"? do you mean places like Sakhalin and Siberia? Or do you mean Taiwan and Korea? Those two are regions in two very distinct categories, and it would be wiser to specify which territory we are talking about...
And yes, most countries did not have the advantages Japan had. That's why we want to list nations that do have crucial advantages making it easier for industrialisation. Industrialisation within the 18th and 19th centuries, of course.

Yes that's why I'm trying to clarify the difference between some earlier suggestions (the Indian states) and Japan. A number of people are just looking at sociopolitical factors without considering the basic resources available.

 

[RousseauX]

Yes, but am I right in saying that sufficient local coal resources were present to fuel this industrialisation? And that it was only later that Japan needed to expand to get the resources to feed its growing economy? If Japan had no accessible anthracite coal do you think it'd have been able to jump start an industrial economy like it did?

If you look at a lot of other Asian states e.g. Siam or the South Indian states, there isn't even that initially accessible load of resources to begin the process.

What kind of resources were there in Korea and Taiwan that was so vital in Japanese industrialization?

I suspect the true answer is that Japan had access to a functioning global market with commodities like coal whereas earlier countries wouldn't have.

 

[scholar]

What kind of resources were there in Korea and Taiwan that was so vital in Japanese industrialization?

I suspect the true answer is that Japan had access to a functioning global market with commodities like coal whereas earlier countries wouldn't have.

All resources mostly learned about after the fact, so as to make them meaningless for the Japanese Industrialization process up to the early twentieth century.

Manchuria was the grab for resources, same as the expansions during World War II.

 

[Flocculencio]

What kind of resources were there in Korea and Taiwan that was so vital in Japanese industrialization?

As the other chap said, none except ex post facto. However, part of the reason of Japan's expansion into mainland Asia was to feed a perceived need for resources.

I suspect the true answer is that Japan had access to a functioning global market with commodities like coal whereas earlier countries wouldn't have.

That's also a very good point but I think we need harder facts- does anyone know if Japan's initial industrialisation was supported by whatever domestic coal resources there were or by imported coal?

In any case it still doesn't invalidate my earlier point which is that for an earlier industrialisation of Asian countries some form of access to coal is needed.

 

[Flocculencio]

I wonder if Siam's best model for industrialization is Scandinvia (or New England); underpopulated countries with a lot of lumber and waterpower.

I've been thinking about something like that for Travancore as well. Here I'm thinking of a very late 19th C move to an industrial economy fuelled by hydropower.

 

[Badshah]

How might a stronger Mughal Empire and Mysore move forward into an industrial economy?

 

[Flocculencio]

How might a stronger Mughal Empire and Mysore move forward into an industrial economy?

As I said, it would be very difficult because of the relative energy poverty of the Indian subcontinent. There's simply no easy access to the high quality coal needed. As it was Indian economies were pushing the limits of what a preindustrial economy could do with sophisticated networks of cottage industries (though held back by a lack of institutions to protect and grow capital) but to make the next leap you need high quality coal to fuel your engines.

As I've said before you could see some of the Indian polities making the leap much later if they remained independent (like Japan did) with access to a developed world trade system (though I'm still waiting for the other guy to tell me if Japan made it's initial developments on imported coal- I'm not sure if that's feasible). Travancore could theoretically make a very, very late 19th C jump if it can develop it's hydropower potential but the trick is remaining independent until then and in any case hydropower isn't an option for most Indian states.

In every TL I've tried to develop about India I always run into the energy problem. There's a lot of coal available in India but much of it isn't of good quality and it isn't easily accessible with preindustrial technology. Thus, any industrialisation would be built on the basis of energy imports- and this seems like a great way to let others choke you off and take away your independence.

 

[Badshah]

As I said, it would be very difficult because of the relative energy poverty of the Indian subcontinent. There's simply no easy access to the high quality coal needed. As it was Indian economies were pushing the limits of what a preindustrial economy could do with sophisticated networks of cottage industries (though held back by a lack of institutions to protect and grow capital) but to make the next leap you need high quality coal to fuel your engines.

As I've said before you could see some of the Indian polities making the leap much later if they remained independent (like Japan did) with access to a developed world trade system (though I'm still waiting for the other guy to tell me if Japan made it's initial developments on imported coal- I'm not sure if that's feasible). Travancore could theoretically make a very, very late 19th C jump if it can develop it's hydropower potential but the trick is remaining independent until then and in any case hydropower isn't an option for most Indian states.

In every TL I've tried to develop about India I always run into the energy problem. There's a lot of coal available in India but much of it isn't of good quality and it isn't easily accessible with preindustrial technology. Thus, any industrialisation would be built on the basis of energy imports- and this seems like a great way to let others choke you off and take away your independence.

I just needed to know if basing it off of imports would be possible, as that's the key factor here.

If it is, then I don't think I'll be running into too many problems, though from where they choose to import will certainly be something to consider. Thank you.

PS. Once you reach industrial technology and the coal becomes more accessible, can the polities be weaned off of imports into using native coal, or is it necessary to continue importing?

 

[Flocculencio]

I just needed to know if basing it off of imports would be possible, as that's the key factor here.

If it is, then I don't think I'll be running into too many problems, though from where they choose to import will certainly be something to consider. Thank you.

Yes, perhaps the Japan experts could comment. Though the Meiji Reformation was in the late 19th C and shipping coal in the early 19th century seems a tad impractical.

I still like my idea of Kerala going electricity mad after importing an American engineer to build hydroelectric dams (this is part of my vague idea of a group of Independent South Indian states which keep their independence by aligning with various powers at different times.)

 

[Reader347]

Though the Meiji Reformation was in the late 19th C and shipping coal in the early 19th century seems a tad impractical.

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I don't know about asia, England was shipping coal to Europe since well before 1700. So if there was a good bit of coal mining, it would seem to make economic sense that it would be shipped by water. Since transportation costs doubled and redoubled very quickly using muscle power transport.

 

[Nilesap]

No mongols.

Fast forward 650 years or so, and we could see a Industrial revolution form outside Europe since Europe never left the whole feudal systems while with random events and descendants of people not murdered by the mongols existing elsewhere lead to the conditions for a industrial economy emerges and the next thing you know it's a rather different China discovering America and genociding the Incas and Aztecs instead.

What sucks of Industrialization, unlike agricultural revolutions is that there's only British Industrialization to go off of since once they industrialized it wasn't too long before they owned a third of the world. So it's hard to say if it was possible elsewhere or not. The part of China northeast of Korea to my knowledge has similarly close iron/coal deposits, though I don't think Korea has the kind of engineering to industrialize since in the East man power generally worked well.

That being said, it is obvious form our world that whoever industrializes is going to really dominate, regardless of their culture. People would be speaking Arabic in Europe as the common language before 1900 instead of after 2100 like in TTL if Mughals industrialized for instance.

Perhaps a Eastern European industrialization? Without the Autocracies the area we now call Russia had from Mongols, perhaps their cultural development goes so different that they end up with Industrializing leading to a world where Eastern Orthodox religion dominates far more and much more people speak Cyrillic. There was a culture up there that could evolve into a capitalist society as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic

Though I am unsure if those areas have the resources.

 

[zeppelinair]

So, I think we've made some progress in listing some nations that have great potential in becoming industrialized within the 19th century:
Mysore (Karnataka?)
Kerala (and/or Travancore)
Siam
Korea
Odisha
Japan (earlier than IOTL)
.....
I remember a timeline somewhere about the Taiping Republic becoming industrialized. Maybe Southern China included?
what other nations can we include? How about Persia?
----EDIT
ㄴsome people mentioned that Korea has a lot of resources but needs a mercantile(export-oriented lol) economy to experience an industrial revolution. Could Korea use the model of Colbertism for this? Or would another theme of mercantilism be more suitable?

 

[Flocculencio]

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I don't know about asia, England was shipping coal to Europe since well before 1700. So if there was a good bit of coal mining, it would seem to make economic sense that it would be shipped by water. Since transportation costs doubled and redoubled very quickly using muscle power transport.

Sure but shipping coal across the Channel/up the Rhine is different from sending it all the way around the Cape to India.