AHC: Army Group Center Encircled and Destroyed - Moscow 1941

Deleted member 1487

That map with the 9th Army, 4th Panzer, and elements of the 4th Army inside of the Salient?
Which salient? If you mean on the map then yes they were. The problem is the Soviets lacked the forces to gobble up all of AG-Center in one go and also lacked the logistics for that. They could take down individual armies, but not the entire army group. If you're notice on the map they staggered their attacks IOTL due to the logistics and transport issues; if you'll notice they attacked 3rd Panzer army in the Klin area, yet failed to take them out, even will attacking the 9th army at Kalinin. They even tried to take out 2nd Panzer Army in the south in their huge salient East of Tula and only succeeded in savaging 1 corps.
 
All of it? Well, yes. You just have to change up the circumstances in which the Battle of Moscow happens. Like have Hitler decide to lunge for Moscow in August of '41 instead of Kiev or what-have-you. Even then, your more likely to see the Soviets lop off and destroy a couple of armies but fall short of annihilating the entire Army Group. And even in the event of destruction, the Germans will be able to cobble together surviving remnants to reform the Army Group and likely halt the Soviet drive around the D'niepr.

Even as it is, you could possibly get the Soviets to OTL destroy the 9th Army and maybe 4th Panzer Group with just a little bit of extra luck or a slightly different decision on Stalin's part (the Soviet failure in this was a very close run thing) but the entire Army Group? Not happening given the Red Army of winter '41/'42. Even if the 9th gets destroyed, 4th Army, 2nd Panzer Group, and whatever is left of 4th Panzer Group would be able to hold the Red Army at the base of the salient.

Either way though, it would be a war-turning victory.
 
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Which salient? If you mean on the map then yes they were. The problem is the Soviets lacked the forces to gobble up all of AG-Center in one go and also lacked the logistics for that. They could take down individual armies, but not the entire army group. If you're notice on the map they staggered their attacks IOTL due to the logistics and transport issues; if you'll notice they attacked 3rd Panzer army in the Klin area, yet failed to take them out, even will attacking the 9th army at Kalinin. They even tried to take out 2nd Panzer Army in the south in their huge salient East of Tula and only succeeded in savaging 1 corps.


3rd Panzer was outside of the salient blunting the 4th shock. Assuming that the Klin salient was closed, and the 9th Army, 4th Panzer, and elements of the 4th Army were destroyed, they would have the numbers, that is the strategic initiative which they only acquired after Kursk in 43', to handily finish off the rest of the Army Group assuming they attempt to hold.

If Center retreats, North has to fall back and drop the siege of Leningrad as well.
 
Even as it is, you could possibly get the Soviets to OTL destroy the 9th Army and maybe 4th Panzer Group with just a little bit of extra luck or a slightly different decision on Stalin's part (the Soviet failure in this was a very close run thing) but the entire Army Group? Not happening given the Red Army of winter '41/'42. Even if the 9th gets destroyed, 4th Army, 2nd Panzer Group, and whatever is left of 4th Panzer Group would be able to hold the Red Army at the base of the salient.

Either way though, it would be a war-turning victory.

How do you think Army Group Center will respond if those elements are encircled and destroyed in the salient? Would they attempt to hold, or retreat?
 
How do you think Army Group Center will respond if those elements are encircled and destroyed in the salient? Would they attempt to hold, or retreat?

There would be some retreat in order to shore up the front, but I don't think it would be big. As I said, they'd probably hold the Soviets at the base of the salient. The fact the Soviet's would be tied down digesting the pocket for much of the winter would be a big help for the Germans.
 

Deleted member 1487

3rd Panzer was outside of the salient blunting the 4th shock. Assuming that the Klin salient was closed, and the 9th Army, 4th Panzer, and elements of the 4th Army were destroyed, they would have the numbers, that is the strategic initiative which they only acquired after Kursk in 43', to handily finish off the rest of the Army Group assuming they attempt to hold.

If Center retreats, North has to fall back and drop the siege of Leningrad as well.
You said the Klin Bulge, which was the 3rd Panzer army's advance on Moscow. If you mean the Rzhev salient, then that is 9th army; they tried to lop it off, but failed due to logistics, timing, transport issues, the failure to eliminate 3rd Panzer army, etc. IOTL the Soviets failed to adequatedly deal with 3rd Panzer at Klin. They should have waited until January to launch their offensive and let the Germans exhaust themselves further while at the same time pinning 9th army with an attack in the Valdai Hills. What you are proposing though is well beyond the Soviet strength in 1941. IOTL they did try to do all you suggest and failed.
 
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