AHC: Aristocracy in Britain retains power

With a POD (or multiple PODs) no earlier than 1850, what would be necessary for the British aristocracy to wield an equivalent proportion of the wealth and influence in 2014 Britain as they did in 1870 or so?
 

libbrit

Banned
With a POD (or multiple PODs) no earlier than 1850, what would be necessary for the British aristocracy to wield an equivalent proportion of the wealth and influence in 2014 Britain as they did in 1870 or so?

You need to avoid WW1. Above all else, avoid WW1

WW1 saw an unprecedented mingling of the classes, literally, in the trenches, which put in the minds of many working and middle class peoples, the very much correct idea that "they are no better than us".

This, coupled with the disproportionate representation of the upper classes in the army, and thus a large number of deaths as upper class officers literally ran en masse into machine gun fire, means that many upper class families had problems with their inheritances as entire `lines` of aristocratic families failed due to problems finding a living successor.

Then of course, WW1 caused significant post war economic and social changes-with revolution abroad, the fear of revolution at home, war debts etc etc etc, resulting in a mass widening of the franchise, massive inheritance taxes that saw aristocratic landed estates sold off and stately homes demolished at a staggering rate, the election of the first Labour government etc, all of which had the general impact of weakening the power of the aristocracy.

And of course, technological change made the aristocrats and aristocratic estates who survived, no longer require staffs of hundreds to run a country pile-after all, if a country estate has electric lighting, there is no need to employ 10 people to go around lighting and cleaning gas lamps, when one electrician will do the job. This made them less important as sources of employment, and thus lessened their social power.
 
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I might get shouted down for this but don't the aristocracy still have significant power in the UK?

Lets take the Duke of Wellington's descendent's as an example:

The current Duke of Wellington is a peer who lost his seat in the House of Lords in 1999. He still holds several Spanish titles alongside his British title and he's a multi millionaire and property owner.

His eldest son Charles Wellesley is the Marquess of Douro, an OBE and the heir to all of the family titles. He again is a multi-millionaire, attended Eton and then Oxford and was a Conservative MEP from 1979 to 1989. He is currently the director of Pernod Ricard the famous French drinks manufactorer.

Charles Wellesley is married to Princess Antonia of Prussia. She sits as a Conservative on Surrey county council.

Charles Wellesley's eldest son is an investment banker. He attended Eton then Oxford where he graduated with a first in PPE. He holds the title the Earl of Mornington. He sits on a huge number of boards and corporations I've linked the full list below. Hes married to Jemma Kidd, shes a model and make up artist. Shes also the great granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrooke.

I could go into more detail but the family also contains at least one currently serving military officer and a Conservative MP. All of them went to Eton and then Oxford and they're all multi millionaires.

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=2702062&ticker=SAN:FP

That literally took 20 mins of digging and wikipedia. I'm pretty sure the aristocracy still has a fair amount of power today.

EDIT: One more thing David Cameron is technically aristocracy depending on how you look at it. Check out his wiki page, namely the family section.
 
How about a much shorter WW1, one that doesn't cause as much social disruption (and especially prevents so many noble deaths)?
 

libbrit

Banned
I might get shouted down for this but don't the aristocracy still have significant power in the UK?

Lets take the Duke of Wellington's descendent's as an example:

The current Duke of Wellington is a peer who lost his seat in the House of Lords in 1999. He still holds several Spanish titles alongside his British title and he's a multi millionaire and property owner.

His eldest son Charles Wellesley is the Marquess of Douro, an OBE and the heir to all of the family titles. He again is a multi-millionaire, attended Eton and then Oxford and was a Conservative MEP from 1979 to 1989. He is currently the director of Pernod Ricard the famous French drinks manufactorer.

Charles Wellesley is married to Princess Antonia of Prussia. She sits as a Conservative on Surrey county council.

Charles Wellesley's eldest son is an investment banker. He attended Eton then Oxford where he graduated with a first in PPE. He holds the title the Earl of Mornington. He sits on a huge number of boards and corporations I've linked the full list below. Hes married to Jemma Kidd, shes a model and make up artist. Shes also the great granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrooke.

I could go into more detail but the family also contains at least one currently serving military officer and a Conservative MP. All of them went to Eton and then Oxford and they're all multi millionaires.

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=2702062&ticker=SAN:FP

That literally took 20 mins of digging and wikipedia. I'm pretty sure the aristocracy still has a fair amount of power today.

EDIT: One more thing David Cameron is technically aristocracy depending on how you look at it. Check out his wiki page, namely the family section.

No, the aristocracy have no power by virtue of being aristocrats. Any power an aristocrat might have in 21st century Britain is by virtue of what their inherited wealth has given them access to (money, education etc). Some (a vanishingly small minority) have large estates which they make money out of-and money buys power i suppose in any society. Most others either live normal middle class lives,and just happen to have a title, or live in rambling crumbling houses which they either have to turn into Hotels,or hand over to the National Trust.


As for the descendants of Arthur Wellesley. Well, that doesnt mean Britain is run by the aristocracy, but that one family has done well out of the wealth and influence of their well known forbear.

Also, the fact that one of the Wellesleys has an OBE isnt really anything-the government hands out OBEs like chocolate bars. Win the Tour de France? Have an OBE, or even a Knighthood. Run an animal shelter for 20 years? Have an OBE. Its just one of the honors of the British system. It doesnt denote any aristocratic significance and comes with no power-just a nice medal.

As for Cameron technically being aristocracy-well, fair enough, but he was elected to parliament and i doubt anyone elected him because of some obscure links to aristocracy. I bet if you go back far enough, many hundreds of thousands if not millions of Brits could find an obscure link to the lord or lady of wherever. Aristocracy has no real influence or power apart from what their inherited wealth can buy them (private school education etc), nothing simply by virtue of having a title.
 
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I might get shouted down for this but don't the aristocracy still have significant power in the UK?

Lets take the Duke of Wellington's descendent's as an example:

The current Duke of Wellington is a peer who lost his seat in the House of Lords in 1999. He still holds several Spanish titles alongside his British title and he's a multi millionaire and property owner.

His eldest son Charles Wellesley is the Marquess of Douro, an OBE and the heir to all of the family titles. He again is a multi-millionaire, attended Eton and then Oxford and was a Conservative MEP from 1979 to 1989. He is currently the director of Pernod Ricard the famous French drinks manufactorer.

Charles Wellesley is married to Princess Antonia of Prussia. She sits as a Conservative on Surrey county council.

Charles Wellesley's eldest son is an investment banker. He attended Eton then Oxford where he graduated with a first in PPE. He holds the title the Earl of Mornington. He sits on a huge number of boards and corporations I've linked the full list below. Hes married to Jemma Kidd, shes a model and make up artist. Shes also the great granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrooke.

I could go into more detail but the family also contains at least one currently serving military officer and a Conservative MP. All of them went to Eton and then Oxford and they're all multi millionaires.

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=2702062&ticker=SAN:FP

That literally took 20 mins of digging and wikipedia. I'm pretty sure the aristocracy still has a fair amount of power today.

EDIT: One more thing David Cameron is technically aristocracy depending on how you look at it. Check out his wiki page, namely the family section.

Oh, they're still pretty important, but their relative power and wealth has declined from the mid/late Victorian period.
 
You know, despite the very true fact that WWI was a great leveller of class divides- not to mention the loss of large numbers of heirs and many of the staff (the gardeners were likely to all be conscripted, and the estate forced to manage on a tenth or less of the previous staff), I'm not entirely sure if the horse hadn't already bolted.

The 1911 House of Lords Bill had fundamentally stripped the Upper Chamber of meaningful ability to halt reforms promulgated by the Commons, and in many ways the War itself actually slammed the breaks on existing reform movements, only to have them build up in the background. The suffragettes basically stopped campaigning to join in the war effort, and had it not been for the outbreak of war Home Rule would almost certainly have been enacted in Ireland in 1914- which would have opened the field for increasing the franchise to a greater number of people.

But at the end of the day, I really think the biggest problem is that by 1914 the aristocracy had already lost the battle to remain particularly powerful. There were pockets of strong political support based on everyone being employed by the Lord of the Manor (West Derbyshire with the Dukes of Devonshire for example), but from what I know it was already the new money- the industrialists, the merchants and bankers- who were controlling policy. Money was certainly still the driving force behind who could influence politics, but that had become increasingly detached from rank and title.

I think you just have to look at the backgrounds for the Prime Ministers of the later 19th and early 20th Century. Of the three significant Prime ministers after 1868, Gladstone and Disraeli were both from decidedly non-aristocratic backgrounds, and Salisbury was pretty much fighting a rearguard action against reform at home, a situation which basically ended with the 1905 victory of the Liberals. The power of the aristocracy was already broken, in my opinion at least. World War One simply shattered the façade.
 
The best way I can think of would be to somehow butterfly away the upper-class prejudice against trade. That way the aristocracy can get a slice of the industrial action -- and probably do very well, since their pre-existing wealth would mean that they wouldn't have difficulty raising capital for the initial outlay of building a factory. And, as lots of people would work in these factories, you'd have even more people dependent on the aristocracy for employment, and hence more political support...
 
I might get shouted down for this but don't the aristocracy still have significant power in the UK?

Lets take the Duke of Wellington's descendent's as an example:

The current Duke of Wellington is a peer who lost his seat in the House of Lords in 1999. He still holds several Spanish titles alongside his British title and he's a multi millionaire and property owner.

His eldest son Charles Wellesley is the Marquess of Douro, an OBE and the heir to all of the family titles. He again is a multi-millionaire, attended Eton and then Oxford and was a Conservative MEP from 1979 to 1989. He is currently the director of Pernod Ricard the famous French drinks manufactorer.

Charles Wellesley is married to Princess Antonia of Prussia. She sits as a Conservative on Surrey county council.

Charles Wellesley's eldest son is an investment banker. He attended Eton then Oxford where he graduated with a first in PPE. He holds the title the Earl of Mornington. He sits on a huge number of boards and corporations I've linked the full list below. Hes married to Jemma Kidd, shes a model and make up artist. Shes also the great granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrooke.

I could go into more detail but the family also contains at least one currently serving military officer and a Conservative MP. All of them went to Eton and then Oxford and they're all multi millionaires.

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=2702062&ticker=SAN:FP

That literally took 20 mins of digging and wikipedia. I'm pretty sure the aristocracy still has a fair amount of power today.

EDIT: One more thing David Cameron is technically aristocracy depending on how you look at it. Check out his wiki page, namely the family section.

Yes, but this power is not because they're aristocrats. Yes, you do have a lot of aristocrats who are still wealthy and powerful but this is because their families managed to weather the 20th C with fortunes and succession (relatively) intact. I'm sure that if you looked at all the aristocratic families from , say 1814, and looked at their main line descendants today, we'd see many lines that have died out or lapsed into comparative obscurity.

Also, in 1814, those families would have been the bulk of the top echelons of the land, whereas now the aristocratic families are just part of the elite classes.
 
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