AHC: Aotearoa

Moa were, for all practical purposes, not domesticable. All species of moa (including the small ones) took about 10 years to reach breeding age. That didn't matter too much in an environment where they had few natural predators, but it left them extremely vulnerable to human hunting. It also meant that no-one was really going to succeed in proper domestication - 10 years is rather too long a waiting period for the next generation of captive moa.

Not exactly. Moas could provide eggs, apart of meat, something that could justify the option of keeping domestic herds. And there is also the possibility to use them in locomotion or as burden beasts.

However I agree that this envision was too much for the first Maori, and simple hunting was the easiest option, considering that they were not challenged by the competence of other human populations. Domestication of animals have been usually triggered by high competence between human groups for the same animal resource, which made some groups to try domestication, thus ensuring a secure resource unaffected by competition on hunting fields. And these conditions did not happen at NZ as well as did not happen in all Oceania. The expansion of the Polynesian people through Oceania caused the extinction of 10% of the species of birds (normally by hunting), a number far superior than the one caused by post-industrialization humans worldwide up to this date.
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
AHC: Make Aotearoa (New Zealand) a unified, developed or semi-developed country with a Māori majority with Māori language and culture.
Possible PODs include contact and trade with Zheng He's fleet in the 15th century which helps develop the Māori tribes. Another POD could be that the British come into contact with a unified 'country' when they reach NZ. It doesn't have to be these PODs but just remember that when the Māori traded with the British, they were quick to adopt muskets, horses, pigs, potatoes etc as part of Māori society so change is not going to be a big challenge for the Māori. So maybe the Chinese could bring rice, boats, wheels, horses, farm animals, gunpowder, paper, writing systems, mining knowledge etc if they visited the islands in the 15th century and then frequently visited and traded with them from there on.
Thanks :D

A good POD somehow potatoes (as opposed to sweet potatoes) got introduced to Aotearoa. The Moari population (especially on the South Island) would have increased dramatically if potatoes got introduced before British settlement.
 
AHC: Make Aotearoa (New Zealand) a unified, developed or semi-developed country with a Māori majority with Māori language and culture.
Possible PODs include contact and trade with Zheng He's fleet in the 15th century which helps develop the Māori tribes. Another POD could be that the British come into contact with a unified 'country' when they reach NZ. It doesn't have to be these PODs but just remember that when the Māori traded with the British, they were quick to adopt muskets, horses, pigs, potatoes etc as part of Māori society so change is not going to be a big challenge for the Māori. So maybe the Chinese could bring rice, boats, wheels, horses, farm animals, gunpowder, paper, writing systems, mining knowledge etc if they visited the islands in the 15th century and then frequently visited and traded with them from there on.
Thanks :D

Yep, the first possibility is Zheng He's expedition fleet and the second will be some fleet from Majapahit.

The good thing will be there isn't likely too be much conflict related to religions as Ming dynasty and Majapahit don't favor any particular religions.

History is full of great leaders of previously unknown people coming from humble backgrounds, you can easily pick someone, give that person a Maori name and make that person a great Maori leader unifying the Maori tribes. Of course it will be better if there is some historical background...
 
Not exactly. Moas could provide eggs, apart of meat, something that could justify the option of keeping domestic herds. And there is also the possibility to use them in locomotion or as burden beasts.

Still not enough for domestication, I'm afraid. A ten year gap until the moa are of use is simply too much to tolerate, whether that use is egg-laying (not yet at breeding age) or beast of burden (not yet fully grown). Any proto-domesticating farmers will give up and get sick of the idea long before then.

I don't know of a single domesticated animal where there is a ten-year lag until breeding age. Not one. (Horses, for instance, can breed from 18 months, although in practice usually aren't allowed to breed until 3 years). The closest equivalent is elephants, and they were always tamed from the wild - where the breeding age did not matter - rather than domesticated.
 
Errr... Populations grow to match the resources available. You are not going to get a larger population at discovery by a larger population at settlement. They'd grown to fill capacity at that point. What you need is to increase the capacity.

A rice Asian culture can feed millions with a land area of New Zealand. Japan and Asian islands are good examples for large population. Japan and philippines are the closest land area. Before the Europeans arrived, Japan had 20m. Philippines had 8m, more than 1890s Spanish philippine otl population.

Yep, the first possibility is Zheng He's expedition fleet and the second will be some fleet from Majapahit.

The good thing will be there isn't likely too be much conflict related to religions as Ming dynasty and Majapahit don't favor any particular religions.

History is full of great leaders of previously unknown people coming from humble backgrounds, you can easily pick someone, give that person a Maori name and make that person a great Maori leader unifying the Maori tribes. Of course it will be better if there is some historical background...

Zhang he is the last possibility. Majapahit accident of discovery comes before that. Majapahit or any other Malay race civlization has hundred of years to accidentally be in New Zealand before zhang he's expedition. The Malagasy in Madagascar are of the same austronesian stock as people in Borneo, Polynesia and the rest of asean. So it's more likely that the Vikings of the area discover New Zealand before any Chinese.

Once the Malays reach, settle or trade at that place, the Chinese will follow suit to trade.
 
Still not enough for domestication, I'm afraid. A ten year gap until the moa are of use is simply too much to tolerate, whether that use is egg-laying (not yet at breeding age) or beast of burden (not yet fully grown). Any proto-domesticating farmers will give up and get sick of the idea long before then.

I don't know of a single domesticated animal where there is a ten-year lag until breeding age. Not one. (Horses, for instance, can breed from 18 months, although in practice usually aren't allowed to breed until 3 years). The closest equivalent is elephants, and they were always tamed from the wild - where the breeding age did not matter - rather than domesticated.

Good points. A further problem is adage "better a bird in the hand than two in the bush", which in this case means the Maori would be confronted, during this domestication project, with the struggle of everyday living vs immediate gains by eating the moa
 
ok so what if the Maori had pre-european contact with China and/or southeast asia and they gain old world foods (rice, cabbage, domesticated animals, etc.), how will this affect present day Aotearoa/ New Zealand? will it be maori controlled or european colonised like otl? and also what could force the maori tribes to unite or is that just too asb?

also how soon after the maori arrived in the area did the moa go extinct? would it have been extinct by the time zheng he or the malaysians may be able to arrive and trade with the islands? are there any other cultures that were isolated for a long time that were relatively undeveloped but managed to resist colonisation that we could get inspiration from or are the maori pretty unique in that sense?
 
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ok so what if the Maori had pre-european contact with China and/or southeast asia and they gain old world foods (rice, cabbage, domesticated animals, etc.), how will this affect present day Aotearoa/ New Zealand? will it be maori controlled or european colonised like otl? and also what could force the maori tribes to unite or is that just too asb?

also how soon after the maori arrived in the area did the moa go extinct? would it have been extinct by the time zheng he or the malaysians may be able to arrive and trade with the islands? are there any other cultures that were isolated for a long time that were relatively undeveloped but managed to resist colonisation that we could get inspiration from or are the maori pretty unique in that sense?

Well, if you are going to get useful contact pre arrival in New Zealand you will need to do so before 1200 AD or so. So I guess if we could get a period of sustained trader / explorer contact before that point from SE Asia that might allow for useful agricultural and technological transfers. It seems that there was a spurt in exploration and settlement about this time which helped push the Poynesians out to their current extent.


Re the Moa - last I read, it was thought that Moa went extinct in the mid 16th century, as about mid century Maori middens stopped collecting any new Moa bones or remains.
 
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