AHC: Anglo-Irish Majority In Ireland

You need some thing like the highland clearances in Ireland where most of the population is sold as slaves or deported to the Americas in the time of Cromwell.
Then you need large numbers of Anglican settlers replacing them.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yeah, this seems rather draconian, even for Cromwell

That is a good point. Even with the potato famine, you still didn't get an English majority.

The thought I had would be for Cromwell to literally become genocidal. The idea of pushing all the Irish to Connacht didn't end up working because of the fact that a lot of people were enslaved, and the new English landlords found that they needed a lot of farm laborers to work the huge tracts of land that they were granted. These landlords were mostly soldiers and adventurers on the good side of the Commonwealth, many without farming experience.

My idea would be for a few things to happen. First, the Irish are just massacred even more than OTL. Second, there are a lot more land grants given to ordinary English farmers used to working small tracts of land, possibly induced by a "10 acres and a mule" type promise. Third, there are NO LAND COURTS set up during the restoration. OTL, Charles gave some land back to the Catholics by appointing land courts to help get the Irish back their lands in some cases, especially with the Royalist Catholic Upper Class. Possibly, there is something in Charles's life that causes him to hate the Irish more than even Cromwell and he does nothing for them.

Another good POD would be for African Slavery in the Americas to prove less successful than OTL because of some disease that decimates them. This would mean there is more desire for Irish slaves to work the Caribbean and Virginia plantations than they did OTL, and you get a lot more Irish people shipped out.


Yeah, this seems rather draconian, even for Cromwell and sucessors.

Especially as has been said, there are certainly easier ways to get Ireland to stay in the UK than genocide.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
True...

Got to say there are vastly easier ways of keeping Ireland as part of the Union than Genocide of the entire Catholic population.


Yeah, this seems rather draconian, even for Cromwell and sucessors.


Especially as you say, , there are certainly easier ways to get Ireland to stay in the UK than genocide.

Cripes, the "rights of Englishmen" would be a good start.;)


Best,
 

TinyTartar

Banned
Yeah, this seems rather draconian, even for Cromwell and sucessors.

Especially as has been said, there are certainly easier ways to get Ireland to stay in the UK than genocide.

Best,

That is definitely true and all. Genocide however I think is the way I see an Anglo-Irish Majority coming about rather than just Ireland staying in the eventual Union.

That is, unless some way to assimilate the Irish population into more English cultural practices and identity is successful. Maybe a more legitimate and respected Church of Ireland would be a start. Also, discrimination against Catholics seemed to simply exacerbate cultural differences rather than to increase assimilation, so maybe less of that would be helpful. An Irish Catholic Tax, much like the Arab Jizya, might also in time lead to more people identifying as English Protestants, although, I question how effective this really was as we know that Arabization was not nearly as universal and successful as it seemed, with Christian populations in the Levant and Egypt surviving even to this day and making up a majority for quite a long time in certain areas.
 
Ultimately, I think what you need is to make Irish Catholics convert and begin to identify as English rather than Irish.

What people seem to overlook is that the Irish _DID_ identify as British up until the aftermath of the '16 rising.

During and immediately after the rising, the Dublin populace hated the rebels, calling them traitors and attacking them if they were caught alone. It was the treatment of the prisoners after this point that drove home the point that, while the Irish saw themselves as British, the British saw the Irish as scum. _This_ is what changed the Irish to wanting independence.

In reality, to keep Ireland part of the UK after WW1, you need to either introduce Home Rule before the war, or have General Maxwell deal with the rebels in a more politic manner. TBH, I can't see what Maxwell can do differently, the rebels were treated in a manner I would see for any rebels during a time of war.

It's also possible, that introducing Home Rule subsequently would also keep things together (avoid the conscription crisis or don't link it with the Irish Convention's recommendations). However, at this point I'd say even if introduced, things have spiraled to a point that it would only be a matter of time before things imploded.
 
Pretty sure it's Stars and Stripes.

Yes regretfully it is.

In all fairness I thought nearly everyone has commented on it at some point it was too obvious, since it is regarded as possibly the worst AH ever written.

My apologies for not being more clear.
 
I believe that the real issue here is English culture/language/religion domination. Genetic domination could only take place via genocide.

I believe that the majority of Ireland's citizenry could have been converted to the Angican church but the English deliberately chose not too.

This ensured a recognizable underclass which could be excluded from power with religious dissent being the pretex. .

By extending the Anglican church, one extended power to a greater variety of people.

Given that the Catholic church was so widely oppressed at times during the conquest, I wonder if the English Kings could have simply squelched it all-together.

As is, English language and culture do dominate Ireland. It was religion which was the true difference maker.
 
More on the horror that is "Stars and Stripes"

Yes regretfully it is.

In all fairness I thought nearly everyone has commented on it at some point it was too obvious, since it is regarded as possibly the worst AH ever written.

My apologies for not being more clear.

As an addition to my previous post on the subject here are a couple of short reviews for the first two books of Harrison's not-opus

http://www.reocities.com/littlegreenmen.geo/sasf.htm
http://www.reocities.com/littlegreenmen.geo/ssp.htm

They are by no means complete coverage, and there is much more drivel to explore, and I have a link to a more comprehensive review of book 1, although it is far too long for a casual read, I do not believe that anyone has ever managed a review of book 3, it made my eyes bleed just to read it.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
As an addition to my previous post on the subject here are a couple of short reviews for the first two books of Harrison's not-opus

http://www.reocities.com/littlegreenmen.geo/sasf.htm
http://www.reocities.com/littlegreenmen.geo/ssp.htm

They are by no means complete coverage, and there is much more drivel to explore, and I have a link to a more comprehensive review of book 1, although it is far too long for a casual read, I do not believe that anyone has ever managed a review of book 3, it made my eyes bleed just to read it.
As I understand it, the main things to say about SST are:

1) There are US tanks. In the 1860s.
2) The US brings Democracy To The UK. By invading.
3) US warships have electric lighting.

edit - aha! Partial review:


https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/review-of-stars-and-stripes-forever.97729/
 
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As I understand it, the main things to say about SST are:

1) There are US tanks. In the 1860s.
2) The US brings Democracy To The UK. By invading.
3) US warships have electric lighting.

edit - aha! Partial review:


https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/review-of-stars-and-stripes-forever.97729/

Ah yes that's the one I was talking about, it is a very good review.

Its just a long read ... but it does cover the multitude of sins in book 1.

Its a pity that a comparable critique does not exist for books 2 & 3. I would love to see an interpretation of Harrison's fixation with Mexican food and how this vastly superior diet grants the locals victory, seriously this point is actually made, somehow missing the British Army's history of adopting local foods and their resulting proliferation around the world.

I would have believed a scene with a bunch of Tommy Atkins' complaining that this Chilli stuff wasn't as good as proper Indian Curry. (You can find curry on the menu at the Cavalry and Guards Club)

And it would probably be cruel to point out that elements of British cuisine have been adopted in other countries, its not as if the only museum in the world dedicated to the Cornish Pasty is in Mexico.:rolleyes:

Then there are the woefully inaccurate descriptions of weapons ,technology, naval architecture, geography and military organisation.

When mis-describing the Spencer Super rifle, it becomes abundantly clear that he is actually mis-describing a Henry Rifle, although being Harrison he would probably call it the yet to be invented Winchester.

Apparently when describing his new magic warship USS Virginia, with a painful aside to the original ironclad, it is given a Quadruple expansion steam engine. No one has even come up with a triple expansion design yet, and I have yet to find a major warship design (even in the 20th century) that used a quad. Then there is its fluid naval design, in book 2 it has two main turrets ... in book three it somehow has three main turrets!?
Okay RMS Titanic did have a quadruple expansion steam engine, a civilian British design, 40 years later!


Then there is his assertion that not having sails would reduce crew requirements on an Ironclad warship by half. Somehow missing the concept that in action atleast 80% of a ship of the line's crew would be manning the guns, if anything the reverse is true with steam powered warships requiring larger engineering complements in action.

And he has the usual impossible feats of geography, inaccurate descriptions of fortifications, (did he ever see a Martello tower?) and human characteristics.
Not to mention somehow not being at war with France, the world's second power, after going to war with France in Mexico?

Apparently in the Harrisonverse Generals (Even 4-star ones) command brigades, whilst Colonels command divisions ... feel free to slap yourself really hard!!!

Then there is his interpretation of US race relations, which I'm sure even our ardent "yay murica" cousins would find insulting. Not only does Ericsson fire his trained, experienced hard working white shipwrights and only hire black ones, but, and your going to love this, Jefferson Davis is killed by a black union soldier whilst riding in a bed sheet and setting fire to carpentry, I can't even tell you how that one works out.

And this is just book two, don't even get me started on the Ireland thing, let me just point out that my family is from the Kerry side of the Shannon, hence personal experience of the questionable geography (And I'm at least as Irish as Mr Harrison) and I find his scenario grotesque.

BOOK THREE ... Oh God it made my brain hurt!

My sincere apologies to everyone for the rant.
 
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TinyTartar

Banned
What people seem to overlook is that the Irish _DID_ identify as British up until the aftermath of the '16 rising.

During and immediately after the rising, the Dublin populace hated the rebels, calling them traitors and attacking them if they were caught alone. It was the treatment of the prisoners after this point that drove home the point that, while the Irish saw themselves as British, the British saw the Irish as scum. _This_ is what changed the Irish to wanting independence.

In reality, to keep Ireland part of the UK after WW1, you need to either introduce Home Rule before the war, or have General Maxwell deal with the rebels in a more politic manner. TBH, I can't see what Maxwell can do differently, the rebels were treated in a manner I would see for any rebels during a time of war.

It's also possible, that introducing Home Rule subsequently would also keep things together (avoid the conscription crisis or don't link it with the Irish Convention's recommendations). However, at this point I'd say even if introduced, things have spiraled to a point that it would only be a matter of time before things imploded.

I think moving the rebels to Britain, or simply imprisoning them after a trial would go a long way for this.

Of course, at that point in time, Ireland was probably going independent at some point. The IPP had been dominant for a long time, and home rule was inevitable, at least for the South. Whether it went like OTL or Ireland simply faded out of the empire like the white dominions did slowly over time is going to be decided by how peaceful the continued union is (open paramilitary warfare between De Valera and Carson won't help matters). Ireland could stay completely British up to the end of the empire in the 50s and 60s if things work out peacefully enough and power is devolved almost completely.
 
I think moving the rebels to Britain, or simply imprisoning them after a trial would go a long way for this.

Of course, at that point in time, Ireland was probably going independent at some point. The IPP had been dominant for a long time, and home rule was inevitable, at least for the South. Whether it went like OTL or Ireland simply faded out of the empire like the white dominions did slowly over time is going to be decided by how peaceful the continued union is (open paramilitary warfare between De Valera and Carson won't help matters). Ireland could stay completely British up to the end of the empire in the 50s and 60s if things work out peacefully enough and power is devolved almost completely.

Honestly I think a slow, peaceful fade out is ASB even if the Rising failed to happen altogether.

Immediately before the First World War you had the Howth gun running were a crowd of Dublin civilians hurled stones at British soldiers (and were fired upon in turn.) That says to me that tensions were rapidly escalating that were only temporarily defused by the intervention of the wider war. This was after all a climate where you tens of thousands of men arming to fight for Home Rule.

Ultimately the Rising was more a symptom than anything else of a growing impatience and tension in Ireland; the true blow to the IPP was the linking of conscription to Home Rule - and again that points to truly fragile the 'moderate' position was before the Rising.
 
I think the easiest way to achieve this is some sort of Irish equivalent to Calvin or John Knox. The eventual resulting more moderate protestantism would have been a good fit with England culturally. Just as it was in Scotland. A protestant Ireland with and English King would have been assimilated much easier into English rule.
 
I think the easiest way to achieve this is some sort of Irish equivalent to Calvin or John Knox. The eventual resulting more moderate protestantism would have been a good fit with England culturally. Just as it was in Scotland. A protestant Ireland with and English King would have been assimilated much easier into English rule.

The problem is that unlike Scotland Ireland no longer had an elite that was representative of the country as a whole; the New English were for the most part Anglicans of recent introduction from England and the high Church offices were firmly in English hands - as I noted earlier the Archbishops of Dublin were filled with Englishmen for literally centuries. The Statutes of Kilkenny predated the Reformation after all when both sides were of the same faith.

A hypothetical Irish John Calvin wouldn't do much to bridge that gap, except in the sense that the Irish would have a harder time finding military help abroad.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
I think the easiest way to achieve this is some sort of Irish equivalent to Calvin or John Knox. The eventual resulting more moderate protestantism would have been a good fit with England culturally. Just as it was in Scotland. A protestant Ireland with and English King would have been assimilated much easier into English rule.

The issue is that the wars of religion, which came to England as well in the disputes over the throne, mean that the Irish, with their own religion to galvanize themselves around, will still be distinct and still be foreign. Whether they go very low church like in Scotland with the Covenanters and Presbyteriansim and proceed to piss of the High Church of England Kings or worse yet, a Catholic King, or if they go High Church and make themselves enemies of Cromwell (again), they are always going to be the other.

Basically, for Ireland to assimilate into English culture and be accepted to the point where they see themselves as English, the English are going to need to be consistent and without internal religious division, something I do not see happening.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
The problem is that unlike Scotland Ireland no longer had an elite that was representative of the country as a whole; the New English were for the most part Anglicans of recent introduction from England and the high Church offices were firmly in English hands - as I noted earlier the Archbishops of Dublin were filled with Englishmen for literally centuries. The Statutes of Kilkenny predated the Reformation after all when both sides were of the same faith.

A hypothetical Irish John Calvin wouldn't do much to bridge that gap, except in the sense that the Irish would have a harder time finding military help abroad.

To be honest, that military help abroad never really helped them much. The Spanish, French, and Papal soldiers sent to Ireland scarcely found themselves doing anything other than ending up with heads on pikes or skedaddling after a crushed rebellion.

And that foreign help demonized the Irish in the eyes of the English. It made treatment harsher and therefore assimilation less likely to happen.

I think that having simply more Norman lords go into Ireland to start with might have made a difference. Isolated and among thousands of native Irish, they adapted their cultural practices accordingly. If this does not happen, and the Old English are more dominant over the island, I think its possible that over time, they make the country more English. Once there is an English presence there strong enough to sustain itself, the wars of religion will not be enough to eradicate that identity.
 
There just aren't enough Norman lords available to make that happen on that kind of scale. As I said before 12th century Ireland simply wasn't rich enough to attract that kind of settlement on a individual basis.

In fact the 'no compromise' mentality you seem to be suggesting would probably have undermined the colony much more quickly since by defenition the nobles would be forefitting any allies amongst the local elite. The collapse of Norman Ireland in in the early 13th century with the beleagured John embroiled in fighting the French would be an interesting timeline but probably the opposite of what you are looking for!
 
You don't need the Irish to think of themselves as English to stay in the union. They just need to think of themselves as both British and Irish.
 
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