AHC and WI: Spanish Caliphate Survives

[John Fredrick Parker]

With no PoDs earlier than Abdar Rahman III's death in 961, how can the Caliphate survive intact for at least an additional century (to 1131)? What would be the effects -- on Spain, Europe, Islam, philosophy, what have you?

 

[MNP]

ED: Scratch that. Have Hakam II avoid having a stroke. Then he might be able to make Hisham II a better ruler before he dies. It probably won't change that much, but 961 is a very late date to try and save the thing.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

ED: Scratch that. Have Hakam II avoid having a stroke. Then he might be able to make Hisham II a better ruler before he dies. It probably won't change that much, but 961 is a very late date to try and save the thing.

A four year delay might do it -- a 15 year old is a whole different thing from an 11 year old.

Settling on this for the cause -- how about effects? Could, for example, a lasting third Caliphate lead to a third "branch" of Islam? Maybe -- and this is pure spitballing by someone who knows little of Islamic history -- maybe a greater role for more the Maliki school? Maybe even "Quranist" schools, begotten through literalism vis a vis Ibn Hazim?

 

[MNP]

Uh, I don't see how. They're just Sunni Muslims.

To get back to making Hisham II not a useless waste of space. At first there was a number of different people wielding influence (including his mother) but Almanzor slowly drove them out. If Hisham is a bit older and more desirous of wielding power there will almost surely be a confrontation of some sort between these factions which could go a number of different ways. But the big problem of ethno-tribal strife remains and it will get worse before it gets better. It's not inconceivable that they could overcome this, but I think it would require some extreme changes in Andalusian society to bridge the Berber-Arab-Hispano-Roman Muslim-Slav free for all that was going on at the end. You need to remember that in Al-Andalus, anyone who ruled the whole state did it by going to one of these groups and using them to hold down all the others by force.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

But the big problem of ethno-tribal strife remains and it will get worse before it gets better. It's not inconceivable that they could overcome this, but I think it would require some extreme changes in Andalusian society to bridge the Berber-Arab-Hispano-Roman Muslim-Slav free for all that was going on at the end. You need to remember that in Al-Andalus, anyone who ruled the whole state did it by going to one of these groups and using them to hold down all the others by force.

Hm, so not much hope of building something long term then, huh?

 

[MNP]

Hm, so not much hope of building something long term then, huh?

Many of the emirs had to reconquer parts of the territory from rebels upon their ascension. In fact, a prolonged period of revolts actually began in the 850s and it took Abd ar-Rahman III seventeen years to gain total control. Despite the state more or less existing for 175 years, the period of continuous unity only ran from 929-1009 at the longest.

In my view, the path to a stable Al-Andalus lies in bringing the Andalusi Muslims to power. They formed the vast majority of the populace but they were always pushed down (I hesitate to use the word "oppressed") by the other groups. However they lacked great military power--as a book I read put it, Cordoba wanted to disarm its population (contrast that to Leon-Castile). Also the Umayyads usually used the Arabs to dominate the rest (until Abd ar-Rahman III) so it would take quite a mental leap to use the Andalusi population as a power base even assuming they could be a reliable military asset.

An alternate path may lie in "rolling sixes" for longer in who is in charge as you suggested. An Ottoman like run of great rulers coupled with weak rivals is unlikely, but if you had more strong Caliphs follow AAR-III (it's "time unified" that counts here) the populace might grow to identify with the monarchy more and provide a stabilizing element and more legitimacy for the rulers. Again however I think you need rulers who can manage the ethnic relations and that is a very complicated thing.

 

[XanXar]

If you could bring a native dynasty some time after Hishams death, one that can take away some of the Emirs/lords power, also no Al-Mansur, he greatly undermined the Al-Andulus army, bringing in Berber mercernaries.