AHC and WI: Netherlands Unites Germany

With a POD of 1550, is there any way to end up with the Dutch uniting Germany? If so, what would the result be? If not, how early would the POD need to be?
 
I think by that time, the Dutch were well-established as a separate cultural identity. You could have the Dutch expand a lot into northwest Germany, but I'd rule out a Netherlands-dominated Germany.
 
I'm not sure how separate they were culturally, but the really important question:

Why in the name of Mammom would the Low Countries want to unite Germany? Focusing on the army and landward affairs - which would be necessary to do this - weakens them in the areas that are important (and lucrative) to them.
 
That's why I didn't rule out Northwest Germany; Areas like the Ruhr are both valuable enough and close to the Dutch heartland so as to make annexation workable, and East Frisia, Oldenburg, and the mouth of the Elbe are culturally in between the Dutch and Germany, and can be valuable in enhancing Dutch maritime and trade power.
 
That's why I didn't rule out Northwest Germany; Areas like the Ruhr are both valuable enough and close to the Dutch heartland so as to make annexation workable, and East Frisia, Oldenburg, and the mouth of the Elbe are culturally in between the Dutch and Germany, and can be valuable in enhancing Dutch maritime and trade power.

It's still something that would take time, money, manpower, and attention away from the commercial and naval arena - and make people who OTL sought to control those areas see the Dutch as taking land they want, which means even more time, money, manpower and attention spent away from the commercial and naval arena for the Dutch.

It's not so much overextension in the sense trying to rule something on the other end of Europe is, it's just a poor investment for a state with a very low population and a sluggish growth rate to get into the land power arena.
 
I'm positive there was a TL somewhere involving the division of the Hapsburg territories after the abdication of Charles V that proposed a third son for Charles, who he gave the Netherlands (well, the Burgundian territories, which also included other stuff) to.

So, if you do that, around 1550 you have an independent Low Countries, with a solid alliance with Spain and Austria. From there, it could develop into the dominant power in Germany and eventually unite Germany. Given a few centuries of butterflies, anything's possible.
 
I'm positive there was a TL somewhere involving the division of the Hapsburg territories after the abdication of Charles V that proposed a third son for Charles, who he gave the Netherlands (well, the Burgundian territories, which also included other stuff) to.

So, if you do that, around 1550 you have an independent Low Countries, with a solid alliance with Spain and Austria. From there, it could develop into the dominant power in Germany and eventually unite Germany. Given a few centuries of butterflies, anything's possible.
Second son, actually.

In the TL in question, Netherlands proceeded to eat most of Rhineland, starting with Jülich-Cleves-Berg.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=150416
 
I'm positive there was a TL somewhere involving the division of the Hapsburg territories after the abdication of Charles V that proposed a third son for Charles, who he gave the Netherlands (well, the Burgundian territories, which also included other stuff) to.

So, if you do that, around 1550 you have an independent Low Countries, with a solid alliance with Spain and Austria. From there, it could develop into the dominant power in Germany and eventually unite Germany. Given a few centuries of butterflies, anything's possible.

How different culturally would the Dutch have been from Germany versus other parts of Germany; for example, would the Dutch be distinct in a more signifigant way from say Saxony or Hanover as Allemanic or Austo-Bavarians?

I really just don't know, but depending, with the right butterflies, integration could be quite strong over a couple hundred years...

I still don't know about all of Germany, but northern Germany and down the Rhine seems sensible.
 
How different culturally would the Dutch have been from Germany versus other parts of Germany; for example, would the Dutch be distinct in a more signifigant way from say Saxony or Hanover as Allemanic or Austo-Bavarians?
About the same, actually. Though Saxony and Hanover had their ruler classes speaking Hochdeutsch for quite a long time, so it was probably a bit more in practice. Of course, in the Burgundian Netherlands, the official court language was French, but nobody outside of the Walloon provinces (Namur, Artois, Hainaut) was very pleased with that, to put it mildly.

Of course, cultural differences are less important depending on the political reality. Frisia was very different from Holland, and Groningen and Drenthe both differed a lot from say Gelre, but they still banded together due to outside pressure. And on the other side, the area around Cleves was strongly Dutch-speaking (bar a few enclaves) but never ended up in Burgundian possession, and therefore became separated from the Low Countries. And I hope I don't have to tell you people about the various attempts by the Union of Utrecht to seek out French or English protectors.

So, when you're talking about the 16th-century Low Countries and how to stretch it out, you've got to talk politics, not culture. Which rather opens things up a lot, I find.
 
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