AHC and WI: EU Constitution Passes

They didn't do it with the Dutch and the French, I doubt they'll do it with the British.

Not least because everyone would know it to be a waste of time. With the Irish the EU is popular even if individual changes aren't, so hoping to get a better answer next time is realistic. Hoping to change British Euro-scepticism by nagging is delusional.

I agree with John Fredrick Parker that a British rejection will play very differently from a Dutch or French rejection. Those two countries have always been core EU members and have historically been among the most supportive and are thus somewhat immune to the "why the hell are you even in the EU?" criticism that is often directed at Britain.
 
Not least because everyone would know it to be a waste of time. With the Irish the EU is popular even if individual changes aren't, so hoping to get a better answer next time is realistic. Hoping to change British Euro-scepticism by nagging is delusional.

I agree with John Fredrick Parker that a British rejection will play very differently from a Dutch or French rejection. Those two countries have always been core EU members and have historically been among the most supportive and are thus somewhat immune to the "why the hell are you even in the EU?" criticism that is often directed at Britain.
The Europhilia of France is greatly exaggerated. Even during the Maastrichttreaty there was a good chance of France rejecting it. If you look at other things in the past, like deGaul keeping Britain out, you'll see that they are about as Eurosceptic as the British. They just better conceal it.

Also some might reject more negative towards Britain, but many countries have very good relations with Britain (the Netherlands for example). They would just ast like it is something that could happen, not that negatively.

The thing is, Britain isn't as special within Europe as the British think they are.
 
Ah, but the narrative exists, and that means it can be played to...
I think it won't, at least not at the level that matters. Maybe there will be some europhilic intellectuals complaining, but the leaders of the other nations and the EU will accept it, just like they accepted the Dutch and French no.
 

Devvy

Donor
The thing is, Britain isn't as special within Europe as the British think they are.

I don't think many, if any, British think we are special in Europe. The root issue is that Britain wants to march to it's own tune, not that of Europe's. If Europe wants to follow our tune then great, if not we aren't bothered.

As has been pointed out in other threads, all the UK wants from the EU is the single market; free movement of people, money & services. We don't care for the Euro or any other federative moves. Hence our current predicament.
 
I don't think many, if any, British think we are special in Europe. The root issue is that Britain wants to march to it's own tune, not that of Europe's. If Europe wants to follow our tune then great, if not we aren't bothered.

As has been pointed out in other threads, all the UK wants from the EU is the single market; free movement of people, money & services. We don't care for the Euro or any other federative moves. Hence our current predicament.

Every one's position is quite clear, however since the EU (and predecessors) is (at a minimum) about cooperation between sovereign states, always marching to your own tune isn't really an option. In fact there wouldn't have been a single market, free movement of people (what about Schengen:)), goods, labor and capital; if every nation in Europe had done so.

Regarding don't care for the Euro, that's more complicated than it seems. Sure as things are right now, I don't see the UK joining; OTOH a fall of the Euro will also be felt by the UK, since the Euro Zone is a large trading partner of the UK and our economies are interconnected.

More federative moves are another issue, no nation can force another nation to join these, however a nation can also not forbid a nation to do so. Furthermore most of the current federative moves in the Euro Zone are an implication of the adoption of the Euro.
 
Maybe there will be some europhilic intellectuals complaining, but the leaders of the other nations and the EU will accept it, just like they accepted the Dutch and French no.

Yes, the decision will have to be accepted as reality -- but I wonder if Anglo-European won't still be harmed, especially if Europhile politicians in France, Germany, et el are tempted to blame the pproblems to come on the British...
 
Yes, the decision will have to be accepted as reality -- but I wonder if Anglo-European won't still be harmed, especially if Europhile politicians in France, Germany, et el are tempted to blame the pproblems to come on the British...

Ironically there aren't even that many Europhile politicians in France, Germany etc. this does not mean that they were happy about the outcome of the summit nor the actions of Mr Cameron though. His unwillingness to compromise and negotiate lost him the support of his peers, before that he did have support from others in a discussion with Merkel.
Besides these complaints would just be the other side of the same coin, since back home he is praised for being non cooperative.

Maybe not blame, but they certainly haven't made any friends either. OTOH it will have to be Germany, France etc, themselves having to solve their problems; but if Mr Cameron decides to frustrate some of these actions, then he has put himself in the position that others can turn him into the scapegoat.

Furthermore the wisest thing to do for all member states involved is to let the issue rest and cool down, and in the mean time prevent further irritations. OTOH currently most comments are for domestic use.
 
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Devvy

Donor
Every one's position is quite clear, however since the EU (and predecessors) is (at a minimum) about cooperation between sovereign states, always marching to your own tune isn't really an option. In fact there wouldn't have been a single market, free movement of people (what about Schengen:)), goods, labor and capital; if every nation in Europe had done so.

Regarding don't care for the Euro, that's more complicated than it seems. Sure as things are right now, I don't see the UK joining; OTOH a fall of the Euro will also be felt by the UK, since the Euro Zone is a large trading partner of the UK and our economies are interconnected.

More federative moves are another issue, no nation can force another nation to join these, however a nation can also not forbid a nation to do so. Furthermore most of the current federative moves in the Euro Zone are an implication of the adoption of the Euro.

For the Euro, when I said we don't care for the Euro, I meant we have no interest in using it ourselves - obviously we have an interest in the Eurozone staying afloat as they are significant trading partners, but the UK doesn't want to help rescue something it has constantly said it wants nothing to do with.

As for Schengen...it doesn't hamper free movement of people. I have no problem with my passport being checked, although I do like the convenience of using my drivers license when I go to Ireland. Amusingly, the only place where I've ever queued more then 5 minutes to go through passport control is in Germany, the country with the reputation for efficiency. :)

As for the whole tune thing....well I can see your point. It's a complex and thorny issue, I guess my only point is that we Brits don't think we are special in Europe. We just want the minimum possible from the EU, whereas almost all of continental Europe wants further federation. Difficult situation.
 
We just want the minimum possible from the EU, whereas almost all of continental Europe wants further federation. Difficult situation.

Which is why everyone would be better off if we left. All the other European politicians could create a federal super-state (though I suspect the voters would have some issues with that), and we could head off to the Mid-Atlantic where we belong.
 
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