AHC: an 1-engined Mach-2 fighter for the RAF

Archibald

Banned
That was the Mirage IV nuclear bomber with two Speys

The Australians built a Mirage III with the Avon engine used in the EE Lightning.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=29163.0

It's disputed, but apparently it could supercruise.

Even if it couldn't, my work here is done.

there was indeed a Mirage IIIK project with a Spey. Dassault managed to stuff a TF-30 into the rear end of a Mirage III prototype, the III-T. The air intakes, however, couldn't cope, plus the TF-30 loved to stall,any time, anywhere, so the marriage was not a happy one.
Max speed Mach 1.4, plus the pilots learned the joy of deadstick landings when the engine stalled and died.

miii-t13.jpg
 

Wimble Toot

Banned
Honestly, I can't think of many post-war UK jet combat aircraft that were better than their French counterparts. Only six spring to mind

Canberra, Vulcan, Victor, Hunter, Buccaneer and Harrier

I would have swapped every Lightning for an Avon-Mirage or Spey Mirage/Mirage F1, every godawful Sea Vixen & Scimitar for a licence-built Etendard IV
 
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Honestly, I can't think of many post-war UK jet combat aircraft that were better than than their French counterparts. Only six spring to mind....
Can I add,
De Havilland Vampire, Vickers Valiant[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Valiant'], [/URL]Gloster Javelin & de Havilland DH.110 Sea Vixen?

I think the number is rather significant compared to the number better French aircraft, its basically just the result of the stupid decision cancelling manned fighters apart from the lighting and then the potentially sensible one of going multinational or US afterwards for the Phantom, Tornado and Typhoon.
 
Sea Vixen and Javelin were awful, useless aircraft.

If the UK had been at war, we'd have scrapped them.
And replaced them with what? I agree they are not great but that's not what you asked "that were better than than their French counterparts".

Looking at say the Sea Vixen what contemporary French jet has two seats and a big radar can operate of a CV?
 
Sea Vixen and Javelin were awful, useless aircraft.

If the UK had been at war, we'd have scrapped them.

Compared to its contemplators the Javelin wasn't all that bad. It was faster, had higher altitude and had better manoeuvrability than the F89, CF100, SA Vautour or Yak 25.

Which do you choose I suppose only the CF100 would have been nearly as capable and the Javelin had much better radar in most versions.
 

Wimble Toot

Banned
The Javelin - prototype flies late 1951, enters service 1956 (after five years of troubles), finally fires the missile it was designed to carry in 1960.

Scrap it.

The DH.110 had an equally tortured and accident strewn existence before entering service. It flew for twelve years and 37% of the 145 built crashed, usually fatally. Buy the F-8 Crusader instead.

The French did.

The AS Sapphire-engined Vautour (Canberra replacement) and the RR Tay-engined Mystere and RR Avon Super Mystere were missed Anglo-French co-operations, too.

All of the above flew as prototypes, and the Tay engine was licence-built by France, as was the de Havilland Ghost and the DH Sea Venom
 
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So you want to replace the not exactly stellar Javelin with either the not quite as good as a Meteor night fighter Vautour or the day fighter only Super Mystere.
 

Wimble Toot

Banned
So you want to replace the not exactly stellar Javelin with either the not quite as good as a Meteor night fighter Vautour or the day fighter only Super Mystere.

How about - a clean sheet of paper and design something else? Try to design and manufacture an all-weather fighter that isn't a dog, y'know like the English Electric P8 or the Hawker-Siddeley P1103

Something with a bit of export potential, pourquoi pas?
 
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Both the planes you propose wouldn't have flown until the early 60s and probably wouldn't have seen service till the late 60s when they would have replaced the Javelin. They were not contemporaries
 

Archibald

Banned
The Vautour would bury a Javelin performance wise. Except it had no good radar nor missiles. now a Javelin radar and a missile on a Vautour airframe would be pretty good...

While the Javelin was a piece of junk, the Sea Vixen was awesome, the real issue was all the delays it suffered. I once red Tony butler book and counted all those years lost between 1948 and 1959, when it finally entered service.
The Sea Vixen could have been in service in 1954, FIVE years ahead of OTL.
 

Wimble Toot

Banned
How would British air defences suffered as a consequence of scrapping the Javelin c. 1960? A twin Sapphire-engined Vautour with a British or American radar/missiles would make a Javelin look hopeless, as archibald correctly states.

According to Duncan Sandys in 1957, everything was going to be done by Bloodhound missiles.
 

Archibald

Banned
And according to Diefenbaker, everything was going to be done by BOMARC missiles.

The solution is to have a versatile, cheap jet that can do everything but the kitchen sink. The Mirage III continuously evolved from 1955 to 1983, long after the Mirage F1 entered service, it took the Mirage 2000 to finally kill the Mirage III !
By 1979 Dassault was proposing the Mirage 50.
By 1982 a Mirage III with FBW was flying, not as a demonstrator to the Mirage 2000, but as yet another upgrade of the Mirage III !
What's more, RAAF Mirage IIIs are still flying, with Pakistan.
And Israel still has Kfir C7 for export.
 

Wimble Toot

Banned
the Sea Vixen was awesome, the real issue was all the delays it suffered.

145 built, 37.93% lost (in peacetime!) and fifty-one Fleet Air Arm aircrew killed.

Looks good at an airshow, though. Shame the only airworthy example has crashed. AGAIN.
 

Wimble Toot

Banned
The Mirage III continuously evolved from 1955 to 1983, long after the Mirage F1 entered service, it took the Mirage 2000 to finally kill the Mirage III !

It is the best Western jet combat aircraft between the F-86 and the F-15 IMO....

The British have never been able to produce an aircraft as good as the F-86, Mirage III or F-15.

Not even the Hunter.

I don't blame the manufacturers - the guilt lies with the UK gov't Air Ministry and the Ministry of Supply.
 

Wimble Toot

Banned
USN and USMC loss rates in the 50's were equally apalling. Same for French Crusaders - 42 bought, at least 16 crashed. Naval aviation is hard.

Not helped by the fact only one of the two crew can eject. British class system at work! :closedtongue:

French F-8s were in service for thirty-five years. The Sea Vixen was in service for twelve years
 
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