AHC: American (south) Ontario, British Wisconsin?

A thought I had on my mind earlier today.....

So, let's say that things don't go so well for the British in the east during the War of 1812, or a similar conflict(ending by no later than 1830), and the Americans manage to annex parts of southern Ontario, including York/Toronto; but on the flip side, the Americans are forced to sacrifice a few parts of the old Northwest, namely, most or even all of what would have been Wisconsin(and Upper Michigan and NE Minnesota besides!), after having too much difficulty holding back the Natives, and/or the Brits themselves, over there.

(Although, for the purposes of this scenario, let's assume for now that the Americans may not be interested in the Rupert's Land territory, or the Maritime colonies, and are keeping to themselves for a while.....at least until the Texas problem starts happening vis-a-vis Mexico.)

What might be the effects of such an outcome? Might the British have to rely more on the Maritime Provinces to secure their remaining interests in continental North America? Or could they convince some folks to settle in the newly annexed Wisconsin country eventually(maybe some Irishmen?)?

And how would the admission of *Ontario as a new free state affect American politics?
 

Zek Sora

Donor
A thought I had on my mind earlier today.....

So, let's say that things don't go so well for the British in the east during the War of 1812, or a similar conflict(ending by no later than 1830), and the Americans manage to annex parts of southern Ontario, including York/Toronto; but on the flip side, the Americans are forced to sacrifice a few parts of the old Northwest, namely, most or even all of what would have been Wisconsin(and Upper Michigan and NE Minnesota besides!), after having too much difficulty holding back the Natives, and/or the Brits themselves, over there.

(Although, for the purposes of this scenario, let's assume for now that the Americans may not be interested in the Rupert's Land territory, or the Maritime colonies, and are keeping to themselves for a while.....at least until the Texas problem starts happening vis-a-vis Mexico.)

What might be the effects of such an outcome? Might the British have to rely more on the Maritime Provinces to secure their remaining interests in continental North America? Or could they convince some folks to settle in the newly annexed Wisconsin country eventually(maybe some Irishmen?)?

And how would the admission of *Ontario as a new free state affect American politics?

I doubt that the Americans would not hold Wisconsin, a territory/state (depending on the time of POD) filled with Yankees, and still hold somebody else's state that was full of Canadians hostile to US rule.

Extremely unlikely that the US would offer to trade Wisconsin for Ontario, even less likely that the Brits would accept the deal.
 

Driftless

Donor
There was a brief period where the British did win back local control of the Mississippi at Prairie du Chien in Southwestern Wisconsin in 1814. The site is just a few miles upstream from the confluence of the Mississippi and Wisconsin Rivers (then a significant communication line back to the Great Lakes). Effectively, the British and their Indian allies controlled Wisconsin. The British relinquished their claim following the Treaty of Ghent.

The Siege of Prairie du Chien:

http://umbrigade.tripod.com/articles/wisconsin.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Prairie_du_Chien

It's not well noted, as the combined forces for both sides were under 1,000 men, it was a sidebar to the main fights, and the impact was temporary.

Also: FWIW, many of the local residents up and down the Mississippi and Wisconsin Rivers, were French speaking descendants of the early trappers and traders. Their affiliation with either side was divided. Even today, many of the river towns retain their original French names: Prairie du Chien, Dubuque, Prairie du Sac, La Crosse (originally Prairie La Croix), Trempeleau, etc.
 
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Nope. No way.

Logistics.

If the Brits/Canadians don't control the Great Lakes, they can't get supplies and soldiers West. Thus if they don't have southern Ontario, they can't control anything west that the US is interested in.
 

Driftless

Donor
The British did control the upper lakes region for most of the war, only relinquishing that control, following the Treaty of Ghent. They had defeated the small US forces at Forts Detroit, Dearborn, & Machilimackinac/Mackinac, and functionally held the military control of the Western Great Lakes till the end of the war.

If Napoleon doesn't come out of the box again in France in 1815, maybe Wisconsin, Michigan, parts of Minnesota, Iowa, and Illinois are negotiating peices?

*edit* to the previous point, the British/Canadians would need to control Southern Ontario, the points above are moot, as Dathi Thorfinnson indicates. They might have had both, but the development would have been drastically different than OTL.
 
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There was a brief period where the British did win back local control of the Mississippi at Prairie du Chien in Southwestern Wisconsin in 1814. The site is just a few miles upstream from the confluence of the Mississippi and Wisconsin Rivers (then a significant communication line back to the Great Lakes). Effectively, the British and their Indian allies controlled Wisconsin. The British relinquished their claim following the Treaty of Ghent.

The Siege of Prairie du Chien:

http://umbrigade.tripod.com/articles/wisconsin.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Prairie_du_Chien

It's not well noted, as the combined forces for both sides were under 1,000 men, it was a sidebar to the main fights, and the impact was temporary.

Also: FWIW, many of the local residents up and down the Mississippi and Wisconsin Rivers, were French speaking descendants of the early trappers and traders. Their affiliation with either side was divided. Even today, many of the river towns retain their original French names: Prairie du Chien, Dubuque, Prairie du Sac, La Crosse (originally Prairie La Croix), Trempeleau, etc.

So a different Treaty of Ghent might help do the trick, in which the British get to keep Wisconsin, but, in this ATL scenario, are still forced to cede those parts of southern Ontario that were under American control to the U.S.? :cool:

And maybe the pro-British Native Americans doing better in some of the northern battles might also help?

However, though, a more recent thought I've had, is maybe, so British Canada doesn't get screwed too much, that Upper Canada still gets to keep York(and what was to be Barrie), while the Americans still take most of the rest of the southwest of Ontario. Gotta wonder how York/Toronto might have developed as a border city, kinda like OTL Detroit or Buffalo in a way.....
 
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