AHC: American Expat Diaspora/Community in the USSR

The problem is the USSR had racial problems of its own and would not at all be thrilled in taking in huge numbers of Black people. They were openly worried that Asians would soon outnumber Slavs in the USSR in the decade or two before it broke up. My guess is they would wind up as low down on the totem pole as Asians if not lower. Once enough of them come back stating they were treated little, if any , better and simply wound up poorer the interest would dry up.

From what I've read, the USSR still had far, far less racist sentiment aimed at Black people than there was in the US. All the accounts I've read by US Blacks and Africans who lived in the USSR is that there was virtually none of the racism they were used to, though the regime could be just as dangerous for them as it was for any other foreign group - so just like any other immigrants, there was a good chance of ending up in the gulag in the Stalin years.

Indeed, it is the regime's suspicious attitude to outsiders that is the real roadblock to immigration by any group.

And yes, they certainly did have racism towards "Asiatics" and worry about becoming a minority in their own empire.

fasquardon
 

Japhy

Banned
(or were killed in the Purges, if you believe Tim Tzouliadis).

You mean if one believes the historical record.

But yeah there's 100% no way this is going to happen meaningfully in a Stalinist USSR without the IOTL result of death and horror. Based on that and the Soviet tendency to try and crush all cultures not Russian all the way to the end, there's zero chance of something like the Confederate Exiles of Brazil.
 
From what I've read, the USSR still had far, far less racist sentiment aimed at Black people than there was in the US. All the accounts I've read by US Blacks and Africans who lived in the USSR is that there was virtually none of the racism they were used to, though the regime could be just as dangerous for them as it was for any other foreign group - so just like any other immigrants, there was a good chance of ending up in the gulag in the Stalin years.

Indeed, it is the regime's suspicious attitude to outsiders that is the real roadblock to immigration by any group.

And yes, they certainly did have racism towards "Asiatics" and worry about becoming a minority in their own empire.

fasquardon

There weren't that many blacks, and when a minority group have barely a visible presence, there are usually no hostile sentiments towards them. So its not surprising at all the blacks in the USSR faced little discrimination. If blacks start to emigrate to the USSR in large numbers, I'm pretty certain racial tensions between the blacks and the rest of the population would be a problem.
 
There weren't that many blacks, and when a minority group have barely a visible presence, there are usually no hostile sentiments towards them. So its not surprising at all the blacks in the USSR faced little discrimination. If blacks start to emigrate to the USSR in large numbers, I'm pretty certain racial tensions between the blacks and the rest of the population would be a problem.

Yeah, a handful is a curiosity but when there are many of them , they seem to be a threat to marginal workers for jobs, better housing , cars etc. You were guaranteed a job in the USSR but not what kind of job. If there were large numbers of American Blacks coming in they would start worrying they might lose their jobs to them and given a lesser job. Very unlikely to happen , but I would expect a certain amount of paranoia about it.
 
You mean if one believes the historical record.

But yeah there's 100% no way this is going to happen meaningfully in a Stalinist USSR without the IOTL result of death and horror. Based on that and the Soviet tendency to try and crush all cultures not Russian all the way to the end, there's zero chance of something like the Confederate Exiles of Brazil.
Since there was no such thing in OTL, perhaps there is some chance for such a community. Of course it would be better if they emigrated after Stalin died, though it's difficult to imagine how that could happen.
 
That wouldn't do it, why go to Russia when you can go to GB, France or West Germany? The USSR was a poor, backwards pit.
I have to disagree with the Soviet union being a poor backwards pit , there was that black guy who sang the SU anthem in english and he stated that when he visited the SU in the 30's russians used to shake his hand in the street and that it was the first time in his life that he was treated with respect and felt like he was a human being instead of a sub-human , there is Muhhamed Ali too , and personnaly my cousin used to study in Soviet Ukraine and he tood that the ppl there were very close to each other and that life was so peaceful and you never see ppl sleeping in the street , homeless , people used to help each other .
 
I have to disagree with the Soviet union being a poor backwards pit , there was that black guy who sang the SU anthem in english and he stated that when he visited the SU in the 30's russians used to shake his hand in the street and that it was the first time in his life that he was treated with respect and felt like he was a human being instead of a sub-human , there is Muhhamed Ali too , and personnaly my cousin used to study in Soviet Ukraine and he tood that the ppl there were very close to each other and that life was so peaceful and you never see ppl sleeping in the street , homeless , people used to help each other .
Paul Robeson?
 
I have to disagree with the Soviet union being a poor backwards pit , there was that black guy who sang the SU anthem in english and he stated that when he visited the SU in the 30's russians used to shake his hand in the street and that it was the first time in his life that he was treated with respect and felt like he was a human being instead of a sub-human , there is Muhhamed Ali too , and personnaly my cousin used to study in Soviet Ukraine and he tood that the ppl there were very close to each other and that life was so peaceful and you never see ppl sleeping in the street , homeless , people used to help each other .

Compared to GB, Germany , France and even Italy the USSR was a poor backwards pit. Its PCI was lower than any of those countries. Why go to such a backwater when you can go to France or GB?
 
Foreign visitor's impressions of the Soviet Union (particularly during the Stalin era) should be taken with a grain of salt, because they weren't allowed to travel freely and really only saw what the government wanted them to see. For instance Paul Robeson probably wouldn't have thought the USSR was such a racial paradise if he'd talked to the Crimean Tartars or Chechens.
 
I have to disagree with the Soviet union being a poor backwards pit

The Soviet Union were a 3rd world country in economic terms even in 1989. Don't get me wrong, the development of the SU in real terms was amazing - the only developing country that outperformed them in the same period was Japan - but they had a long, long way to go to catch up with Western Europe.

Compared to GB, Germany , France and even Italy the USSR was a poor backwards pit. Its PCI was lower than any of those countries. Why go to such a backwater when you can go to France or GB?

People migrate to Argentina, and that is a backwards pit compared to GB, Germany, France and Italy. Pit-ness is relative. Especially when richer countries are out of reach.

Foreign visitor's impressions of the Soviet Union (particularly during the Stalin era) should be taken with a grain of salt, because they weren't allowed to travel freely and really only saw what the government wanted them to see.

One of the other things is that the major cities were much more developed than anywhere else and Moscow and Leningrad more developed still.

Like many other developing nations, the USSR had wide wealth disparities between regions.

fasquardon
 
The Soviet Union were a 3rd world country in economic terms even in 1989. Don't get me wrong, the development of the SU in real terms was amazing - the only developing country that outperformed them in the same period was Japan - but they had a long, long way to go to catch up with Western Europe.

Most of which were colonies between 1917 until the 1950's-1960's which often used the USSR as an economic role model after decolonization and got very little growth. A number of developing countries had even better growth rates after decolonization such as the Asian Tigers.
People migrate to Argentina, and that is a backwards pit compared to GB, Germany, France and Italy. Pit-ness is relative. Especially when richer countries are out of reach.
Mostly from other backwards pits which doesn't include the US. There are flights to London and Paris every day and that started somewhere in the 1950's or sooner I believe. There is no reason to go to a backwards pick like the USSR when you can go to France or Great Britain.

One of the other things is that the major cities were much more developed than anywhere else and Moscow and Leningrad more developed still.

Like many other developing nations, the USSR had wide wealth disparities between regions.

fasquardon

True enough.
 
The Soviet Union were a 3rd world country in economic terms even in 1989. Don't get me wrong, the development of the SU in real terms was amazing - the only developing country that outperformed them in the same period was Japan - but they had a long, long way to go to catch up with Western Europe.



People migrate to Argentina, and that is a backwards pit compared to GB, Germany, France and Italy. Pit-ness is relative. Especially when richer countries are out of reach.



One of the other things is that the major cities were much more developed than anywhere else and Moscow and Leningrad more developed still.

Like many other developing nations, the USSR had wide wealth disparities between regions.

fasquardon
Wasn't the Soviet union a world super power ? How can they maintain such status and have a 3rd world economy and I understand why some ppl would go to live there because the idea of everyone being equal and having a job sure is appealling to someone who is fed up with debts and capitalist way of life
 
Wasn't the Soviet union a world super power ? How can they maintain such status and have a 3rd world economy and I understand why some ppl would go to live there because the idea of everyone being equal and having a job sure is appealling to someone who is fed up with debts and capitalist way of life

1) The USSR had nuclear weapons
2) Communism was an ideology with world appeal, allowing the USSR influence far outside of the range of its physical power
3) The USSR sacrificed heavily for the privilege of pretending to be equal to the US
4) The USSR bluffed. Heavily.

The last point is why secrecy was so absolutely vital to the USSR by the way. If anyone had known the real state of their economy and military, while they would have still been considered a power, they certainly wouldn't have been considered the equal of the USA (and quite possibly, that would have been game over as soon as anything like the Korean War, the Berlin crisis or the Cuban Missile Crisis happened).

The Cold War was a competition between a super power allied with every other great power on the planet against a powerful developing country that was pretending to be a super power.

Which may not matter all that much. The Soviets still could have wiped out human life on the planet just acting on their own.

fasquardon
 
1) The USSR had nuclear weapons
2) Communism was an ideology with world appeal, allowing the USSR influence far outside of the range of its physical power
3) The USSR sacrificed heavily for the privilege of pretending to be equal to the US
4) The USSR bluffed. Heavily.

The last point is why secrecy was so absolutely vital to the USSR by the way. If anyone had known the real state of their economy and military, while they would have still been considered a power, they certainly wouldn't have been considered the equal of the USA (and quite possibly, that would have been game over as soon as anything like the Korean War, the Berlin crisis or the Cuban Missile Crisis happened).

The Cold War was a competition between a super power allied with every other great power on the planet against a powerful developing country that was pretending to be a super power.

Which may not matter all that much. The Soviets still could have wiped out human life on the planet just acting on their own.

fasquardon
Interesting , thanks for the infos .
 
I have to disagree with the Soviet union being a poor backwards pit , there was that black guy who sang the SU anthem in english and he stated that when he visited the SU in the 30's russians used to shake his hand in the street and that it was the first time in his life that he was treated with respect and felt like he was a human being instead of a sub-human ,

When Paul Robeson was in the Soviet Union in 1949, he wanted to see two Soviets he had befriended in 1943 - Solomon Mikhoels and Itzik Feffer. Because Stalin saw Robeson as a useful propaganda tool, he didn't want to refuse him so he released Itzik Feffer from prison. Feffer told Robeson that Stalin had already murdered Mikhoels (in 1948) and that he himself would soon be murdered. Itzik told Robeson, "They're going to kill us. When you return to America, you must speak out and save us." Robeson refused in order to protect the reputation of Stalin and the Soviet Union. He told him that to his face. Itzik was finally murdered in 1952. What a great friend.

Because Robeson was (understandably) upset with the treatment of blacks in America, he had no problems with Stalin murdering 20 million of his own people, imprisoning 14 million in the gulag, and the other crimes of Stalin which far exceeded the discrimination and lynching (which peaked from 1890 to 1930, and was not a common occurrence by this time) done to blacks in America. That does not make Robeson a moral hero. It makes him scum.

there is Muhhamed Ali too ,

Muhammed Ali visited the Soviet Union in 1978. Like many other famous guests in the period, he was given a Potemkin tour of the Soviet Union for propaganda purposes. When he returned to New York he said in a press conference:

“I was a little nervous when I landed in Russia. I thought I’d see the country in ruins, with a crowd of gloomy people who think like robots, and intelligence agents, who would follow my every step. Instead, I saw a country populated by a hundred nationalities, who are living together in harmony. I saw only one policeman, who was carrying no weapons. There is no crime, no prostitutes and no homosexuals.”

Ten years later the country whose people lived "together in harmony" was on its way to no longer exist. The Armenians and Azeris would begin killing each other, and the Baltics were in revolt. If Muhammed Ali only saw one policeman with no weapons, it was because he didn't know who the secret police were who did. There were plenty of crime and prostitutes (and I assume homosexuals as well). Most of the criminals though, alas, were not on the streets but in the government.

Unlike Robeson, Muhammad Ali meant well. He was just a dupe. In 1980, Muhammad Ali went on a tour in Africa to try to convince countries to boycott the Moscow Olympics in protest of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

and personnaly my cousin used to study in Soviet Ukraine and he tood that the ppl there were very close to each other and that life was so peaceful and you never see ppl sleeping in the street , homeless , people used to help each other .

Of course your cousin didn't see people sleeping in the street. That would be embarrassing. That is what prison is for, and the slave labor camps. "Vagrants" and "parasites" were eliminated or hidden one way or the other.

It was one of the big lies that despite all the political repression, at least the Soviets provided economic security to its citizens unlike the United States. Wrong. On every measure of poverty, the Soviet Union was far worse.
 
Top