AHC: After Hitler, our turn

So here's a tricky challenge. IOTL the German Communists, holding to the Stalinist Social Fascism line, refused to cooperate with Social Democrats against the Nazis. After all, according to the line, there was no meaningful difference between Fascism and Social Fascism and both were ultimately reactionary bourgeois movements designed to suppress the revolution and keep the proletariat enslaved to capitalism. So confident of this were the leadership of the KPD that they coined the slogan "After Hitler, out turn!" believing that even if the Nazis got into power they would ultimately discredit themselves in the eyes of the German working class who would ultimately switch their support to the KPD and bring about the revolution. Suffice it to say things did not go exactly as planned.

Your challenge is to have Thalmann's inane slogan actually work out for the Communists. Hitler comes to power, then they fall out of power and the Communists take over afterwards. The leadership doesn't have to be the same and they don't have to hold to the Third Position policies so a united front witht eh Social Democrats is possible but only after the Nazis take power.
 
Easy - Germany goes to war too early, either in 1934 or 1936. They get thrashed, and the Nazis barely hold on to power by signing a humiliating peace treaty. With the arms industry gutted and foreign investment gone, unemployment goes up and the Communist ranks swell until the Nazi regime is swept away (with Soviet support).
 
So here's a tricky challenge. IOTL the German Communists, holding to the Stalinist Social Fascism line, refused to cooperate with Social Democrats against the Nazis. After all, according to the line, there was no meaningful difference between Fascism and Social Fascism and both were ultimately reactionary bourgeois movements designed to suppress the revolution and keep the proletariat enslaved to capitalism. So confident of this were the leadership of the KPD that they coined the slogan "After Hitler, out turn!" believing that even if the Nazis got into power they would ultimately discredit themselves in the eyes of the German working class who would ultimately switch their support to the KPD and bring about the revolution. Suffice it to say things did not go exactly as planned.

Your challenge is to have Thalmann's inane slogan actually work out for the Communists. Hitler comes to power, then they fall out of power and the Communists take over afterwards. The leadership doesn't have to be the same and they don't have to hold to the Third Position policies so a united front witht eh Social Democrats is possible but only after the Nazis take power.

In the end, it did come true... At least in the East. So, OTL? :biggrin:

Someone posted a few maps of a SA-SS civil war with a Communist resurgence in the map thread so maybe that could work too.
 
Easy - Germany goes to war too early, either in 1934 or 1936. They get thrashed, and the Nazis barely hold on to power by signing a humiliating peace treaty. With the arms industry gutted and foreign investment gone, unemployment goes up and the Communist ranks swell until the Nazi regime is swept away (with Soviet support).

An earlier war could be interesting. Especially postwar. If war breaks out in 1936 then the allies probably throw actually support behind the Republicans in Spain and the French Popular Front might be able to ride the wave of a short successful war to remain in power. With Germany going Communist afterwards that would probably kick off another revolutionary wave in Europe.

In the end, it did come true... At least in the East. So, OTL? :biggrin:

Someone posted a few maps of a SA-SS civil war with a Communist resurgence in the map thread so maybe that could work too.
True but I was imagining it happening not as a result of a foreign intervention.
 
An earlier war could be interesting. Especially postwar. If war breaks out in 1936 then the allies probably throw actually support behind the Republicans in Spain and the French Popular Front might be able to ride the wave of a short successful war to remain in power. With Germany going Communist afterwards that would probably kick off another revolutionary wave in Europe.

Germany getting slapped for more blatant support to the Spanish fascists maybe? With the utter humiliation of having to back off because they aren't ready destroying Nazi support. Or even it escalating to war.

Though any KPD revolutionary wave is going to be pretty awful. They were thoroughly Stalinized by then. Hopefully France and Spain's popular fronts can play counterweight.


What about my other suggestion of the Nazis failing to clean up the SA and having to fight them, leaving room for the communists to seize ground while they fight, until they exhaust each other?
 
A dark horse option is the Nazis are more gung-ho about anti-Semitism. IOTL there was a relatively soon realization that Germans were not tolerant of out and out, blatant anti-Semitism (see the failed boycott and growing public unease about SA violence). A Nazi regime that ignored these warning signs and kept going "BUT JEWS" as Germany continues to suffer could lead to a discrediting of the Hitler cabinet.
 
A dark horse option is the Nazis are more gung-ho about anti-Semitism. IOTL there was a relatively soon realization that Germans were not tolerant of out and out, blatant anti-Semitism (see the failed boycott and growing public unease about SA violence). A Nazi regime that ignored these warning signs and kept going "BUT JEWS" as Germany continues to suffer could lead to a discrediting of the Hitler cabinet.

How would they lose state power though? I doubt the military would turn on them over antisemitism.
 
How would they lose state power though? I doubt the military would turn on them over antisemitism.
Not on antisemitism itself but growing unrest as the nation’s problems continue to fester unchallenged.

...actually, this poster brings up a good point to challenge the AHC. The military. They’re really, really not going to like a communist Germany... that has to be addressed.
 
Germany getting slapped for more blatant support to the Spanish fascists maybe? With the utter humiliation of having to back off because they aren't ready destroying Nazi support. Or even it escalating to war.

Though any KPD revolutionary wave is going to be pretty awful. They were thoroughly Stalinized by then. Hopefully France and Spain's popular fronts can play counterweight.


What about my other suggestion of the Nazis failing to clean up the SA and having to fight them, leaving room for the communists to seize ground while they fight, until they exhaust each other?
I was thinking that initial Nazi repression could suppress the Stalinist leadership of the KPD as well as the more moderate leadership of the SPD. The underground parties form a united front against fascism and begin to rebuild themselves. When the Nazis collapse and the United Front, increasingly dominated by the Communists and left-wing Social Democrats, takes power it would be with a different leadership to the Moscow-dominated KPD. Furthermore, Communists who were able to win power mainly on their own power instead of being installed, such as in Yugoslavia, China and Somalia, tended to be a lot more independent from Moscow and not above telling them to screw themselves.

I like the idea of an inter-Nazi civil war. It might be able to strengthen the position of the Communists in the anti-Nazi resistance if each of the factions is able to draw in the more right-wing sections of the resistance. Maybe the SA/Strasser types reach out to the furthest right wing of Social Democracy, Beefsteak Socialist and Liberal Collaborators to bolster their support whilst the SS types double down on the Junkers and old reactionaries for support. The SS wins and purges the SA/Strasser supporters thoroughly leaving the remnants of the SPD and KPD as the sole remaining resistance. The SS Nazis, feeling the need to bolster their support with a military victory, blunder into a war unprepared and get their arses handed to them. In the aftermath the United Front are the only ones left to pick up the pieces.
 
Not on antisemitism itself but growing unrest as the nation’s problems continue to fester unchallenged.

...actually, this poster brings up a good point to challenge the AHC. The military. They’re really, really not going to like a communist Germany... that has to be addressed.

Maybe we can bring that into the civil war idea? I think the map I'm taking inspiration from had them trying to stay neutral, but I could also see them splitting internally, along pro-Nazi sides (both of them) and a monarchist restoration attempt. Plus some officers carving a fiefdom in the name of preserving security.

I was thinking that initial Nazi repression could suppress the Stalinist leadership of the KPD as well as the more moderate leadership of the SPD. The underground parties form a united front against fascism and begin to rebuild themselves. When the Nazis collapse and the United Front, increasingly dominated by the Communists and left-wing Social Democrats, takes power it would be with a different leadership to the Moscow-dominated KPD. Furthermore, Communists who were able to win power mainly on their own power instead of being installed, such as in Yugoslavia, China and Somalia, tended to be a lot more independent from Moscow and not above telling them to screw themselves.

I like the idea of the Nazis destroying the old leadership but enough of the membership escaping to rebuild. Maybe they can take inspiration from the Spanish popular front and have a bit of reconciliation with both more moderate and more radical people.

I like the idea of an inter-Nazi civil war. It might be able to strengthen the position of the Communists in the anti-Nazi resistance if each of the factions is able to draw in the more right-wing sections of the resistance. Maybe the SA/Strasser types reach out to the furthest right wing of Social Democracy, Beefsteak Socialist and Liberal Collaborators to bolster their support whilst the SS types double down on the Junkers and old reactionaries for support. The SS wins and purges the SA/Strasser supporters thoroughly leaving the remnants of the SPD and KPD as the sole remaining resistance. The SS Nazis, feeling the need to bolster their support with a military victory, blunder into a war unprepared and get their arses handed to them. In the aftermath the United Front are the only ones left to pick up the pieces.

@Resurgam suggested the military had a role to play and I think that's probably where old reactionaries end up. Same with liberals and more progressive military elements. The SA probably go full populist, embracing the more grassroot elements of fascism while the SS get the party hierarchy, network and whatever state infrastructures they already ruled as they're the favoured sons. I could see them ignoring the communists in favour of the face off because they think they're already done for.

I'm not sure I see the SS winning in that situation though, if they lose too much of the military, the SS forces themselves were quite green and the SA had a lot of muscle. I was more thinking they stalemate long enough for the communists to get something together.
 
Could the Night of the Long Knives be the inciting incident for the civil war? Maybe the SA and their supporters get word of Hitler's plan to purge them and they decide to act first. Claiming that the SS were planning an anti-Hitler coup the SA launches a pre-emptive strike against their enemies in the Party. During the fighting Hitler is killed with each side claiming the other did it. With Hitler dead the civil war begins. The SA have a more populist base and are willing to reach out to various opposition groups in the hopes of building up their support whilst the SS are more establishment and crucially have the support of the army who detested Rohm. The support of the military helps tip things in favour of the SS and Himmler becomes the new Führer.

I wonder how a Nazi civil war would effect the other Fascist governments and parties at the time. I could see Mussolini backing the SA which would badly damage German-Italian relations, at the time pretty strained IOTL, and serve a blow to his legitimacy at home when the side he backs loses. I suspect that a lot of Fascist Parties and governments would probably begin a series of purges to prevent any similar civil war breaking out in their own countries which has the potential to escalate into a circular firing squad. Himmler's neo-paganism and anti-Christianity would also dive a bigger wedge between the Nazis and the Austrofascists and make an Anschluss harder to pull off as well as turn the Churches in Germany more heavily against the Nazi regime.
 
Hindenburg drops dead in late 1932; his replacement as interim President continues the stonewall against Hitler as Chancellor; also maneuvers to delay the special election for President (which Hitler could win). Utterly frustrated, Hitler resorts to revolution - ordering the SA to seize control of the country. The Reichswehr tries to resist, but is overwhelmed by sheer numbers and the reluctance of many soldiers to kill in defense of a regime that has failed the country (economically) and is ruling in violation of the constitution.

Nonetheless there is a great deal of bloodshed, and the triumphant SA avenges this by indiscriminate violence against Jews, Social Democrats (who came out in support of the Republic), the upper classes (the upper bourgeoisie and the aristocracy), the police and judiciary, and the army leadership. Much looting of businesses and mansions in the name of "feeding the poor". Hitler doesn't want all this, but the SA are like Mao's Red Guard - largely out of control.

The KPD went underground when the violence started. The SPD has been destroyed, and the KPD now stands as the organized resistance to The New Order. Hitler moves to rein in the SA, and disappoints many of them with his non-redistributionist policies. Some revert to Red affiliation. The disruption of the Revolution causes further economic problems, which the Nazi leaders have no clue about solving. By 1936, the KPD is strong enough to launch a rebellion. (Germany's police agencies were hit hard during the Revolution, and then packed with ignorant SA men. Thus the KPD organizes with near impunity.)

By 1936, labor unrest is epidemic.Hitler attempts to crack down and provokes a general strike. The strike escalates into rebellions, and the KPD surfs the wave to power.
 
Easy - Germany goes to war too early, either in 1934 or 1936. They get thrashed, and the Nazis barely hold on to power by signing a humiliating peace treaty. With the arms industry gutted and foreign investment gone, unemployment goes up and the Communist ranks swell until the Nazi regime is swept away (with Soviet support).
So the first attempt at annexing Austria goes hot the Germans attack Italy in the Alps and the Italians fight the one war they were actually ready to fight and Mussolini is a hero instead of a comic opera villain ?
 
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