AHC: After 1000, have European Paganism survive as long as reasonably possible

With a point of divergence after 1000, have European Paganism survive as long as it can. This is not really me area of expertise but is an interesting question whatsoever. My personal thought would be to perhaps have Lithuania remain a stronger power, along with a more centralized Baltic Pagan hierarchy that could actually be able to convert on it's own.
 
With a point of divergence after 1000, have European Paganism survive as long as it can. This is not really me area of expertise but is an interesting question whatsoever. My personal thought would be to perhaps have Lithuania remain a stronger power, along with a more centralized Baltic Pagan hierarchy that could actually be able to convert on it's own.

Lithuania beating back the Baltic Crusaders is certainly a must if you want a post 1000 POD: By this point, pretty much every other "branch" (For lack of a better term, since they all developed independently) of native European Paganism had been or was in the process of being processed into Christianity. By having a Romuva dynasty unite the Baltic tribes behind fighting the Teutonic Crusaders and successfully beating back and driving out several "waves", not only do you create a strengthened central power that could forge the formally tribalistic society into something resembling a medieval state that the Europeans could potentially be made to accept, but give those ruler's particular interpretation/structure of the mythology far greater legitimacy: as the Gods are clearly favoring it and have demonstrated at least its equality to the Christian god. Connect the standardization of ritual, hierarchy among the gods, ect. in the state-formation process by said dynasty, and Lithuania can give their population and intelligencia the depth of belief and theological arguements to defend their folklore/practices as well as the martial power to resist conversion by force/political expediancy for the elite.
 
Lithuania beating back the Baltic Crusaders is certainly a must if you want a post 1000 POD: By this point, pretty much every other "branch" (For lack of a better term, since they all developed independently) of native European Paganism had been or was in the process of being processed into Christianity. By having a Romuva dynasty unite the Baltic tribes behind fighting the Teutonic Crusaders and successfully beating back and driving out several "waves", not only do you create a strengthened central power that could forge the formally tribalistic society into something resembling a medieval state that the Europeans could potentially be made to accept, but give those ruler's particular interpretation/structure of the mythology far greater legitimacy: as the Gods are clearly favoring it and have demonstrated at least its equality to the Christian god. Connect the standardization of ritual, hierarchy among the gods, ect. in the state-formation process by said dynasty, and Lithuania can give their population and intelligencia the depth of belief and theological arguements to defend their folklore/practices as well as the martial power to resist conversion by force/political expediancy for the elite.
The problem with this idea is that the situation you propose (Lithuanians uniting the Baltic tribes behind fighting the Crusaders and beating back several crusade waves, as well as forming a state which is seen as being able to stand up to the Christian world) happened almost word-for-word in OTL, and the Lithuanians converted anyway. The reasoning is simple - being a renegade religion-wise sucks. Adopting Christianity allowed Lithuania to establish peaceful contacts with the world around it, more easily take in Western culture and technological advancements and, most importantly, stop the brutal, hundred years long war with the Teutonic Order. And that war was brutal. III tome of "History of Lithuania" calculates that by 1400, there were almost as many Lithuanian and Lithuanian-born slaves in Teutonic territory as there were Lithuanians in Lithuania itself (200k former and 300k latter), that's just how painful the conflict was.

So if the target is to have paganism in Europe survive as long as possible, the goal should be to not strengthen Lithuania, but to weaken Christian Europe, so Lithuanians or any other pagans still left had less of an impediment to convert. I've already posited in this thread that a Europe which was thoroughly thrashed by the Mongols could potentially see Lithuania remain pagan for a much longer time, as the Teutonic and Livonian Orders would be gone and Orthodox pressure might not be enough to have the Grand Dukes convert to it, especially if Lithuania ends up expanding both to Catholic and Orthodox territory.
 
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Teutonic Order was not very anti-pagan, really. Until 16th Century Baltic Prussians performed their rituals in Sambia with permission of Grand Master! At the same time Baltic Paganism was still alive and kicking in Livonia and Lithuania. 16th Century bishop of Samogitia complained, that hardly anyone in his diocese ever confessed or received Holy Communion, and even making sign of Cross is problem for Samogitians.
 
Teutonic Order was not very anti-pagan, really. Until 16th Century Baltic Prussians performed their rituals in Sambia with permission of Grand Master! At the same time Baltic Paganism was still alive and kicking in Livonia and Lithuania. 16th Century bishop of Samogitia complained, that hardly anyone in his diocese ever confessed or received Holy Communion, and even making sign of Cross is problem for Samogitians.
The TO indeed cared little about actually proselytizing the pagans they conquered, but, in my opinion, even if they didn't bother with converting the pagans, Teuton controlled lands were bound to turn Christian eventually. Simply because of exposure from German colonists, the need to be Christian to advance in your career, etc.
 
Sweden leaves Lapland alone for as long as possible and that way you will have Sami tribes keeping their original religion for longer
 

ASUKIRIK

Banned
Henry VIII instead of making separate Anglican Church, goes nutjob and revived the syncretic Anglo-Saxon-Germanic-Nordic-Whatever paganism to spite the Pope. For somehow reasons, nobody thought this seriously until all England is back being Heathens and wellw have Pagan British Empire down the line.
 
With a point of divergence after 1000, have European Paganism survive as long as it can. This is not really me area of expertise but is an interesting question whatsoever. My personal thought would be to perhaps have Lithuania remain a stronger power, along with a more centralized Baltic Pagan hierarchy that could actually be able to convert on it's own.
The Sami religion lasted into the 1700s.
 
The problem with this idea is that the situation you propose (Lithuanians uniting the Baltic tribes behind fighting the Crusaders and beating back several crusade waves, as well as forming a state which is seen as being able to stand up to the Christian world) happened almost word-for-word in OTL, and the Lithuanians converted anyway. The reasoning is simple - being a renegade religion-wise sucks. Adopting Christianity allowed Lithuania to establish peaceful contacts with the world around it, more easily take in Western culture and technological advancements and, most importantly, stop the brutal, hundred years long war with the Teutonic Order. And that war was brutal. III tome of "History of Lithuania" calculates that by 1400, there were almost as many Lithuanian and Lithuanian-born slaves in Teutonic territory as there were Lithuanians in Lithuania itself (200k former and 300k latter), that's just how painful the conflict was.

So if the target is to have paganism in Europe survive as long as possible, the goal should be to not strengthen Lithuania, but to weaken Christian Europe, so Lithuanians or any other pagans still left had less of an impediment to convert. I've already posited in this thread that a Europe which was thoroughly thrashed by the Mongols could potentially see Lithuania remain pagan for a much longer time, as the Teutonic and Livonian Orders would be gone and Orthodox pressure might not be enough to have the Grand Dukes convert to it, especially if Lithuania ends up expanding both to Catholic and Orthodox territory.
Could not some holdouts of the Romnuva religion survive without having the state share or support the religion?
 
Russia does have Uralic-speaking peoples (amongst others) still practicising their indigenous religion, but with the Sami I'm pretty sure it's all been blended into Christianity for centuries at this point. But these groups in Russia tend to live on the fringes of society or in generally unproductive lands, whereas the Baltic peoples live in a land which is decently fertile and well-connected to the rest of Europe, in between Catholic and Orthodox Christians, so it's pretty inevitable that at some point they'll adopt Christianity.
 
Could not some holdouts of the Romnuva religion survive without having the state share or support the religion?
Baltic paganism in its pure form survived well into the Counter-Reformation, and, in some regards, you could make the argument that modern Lithuanian culture is a syncretism of paganism and Christianity, or at least has been until very recently - alongside God and Christian theology, you'd have various magic, pagan holidays and traditions enduring without being turned into Christian stuff.
 
Baltic paganism in its pure form survived well into the Counter-Reformation, and, in some regards, you could make the argument that modern Lithuanian culture is a syncretism of paganism and Christianity, or at least has been until very recently - alongside God and Christian theology, you'd have various magic, pagan holidays and traditions enduring without being turned into Christian stuff.
I can imagine the communist era not being kind to baltic paganism.
 
Reading through this, maybe just have Lithuania end up being independent and have the neopagan movement take off and you could have Lithuania be a joint Christian/Pagan state well into the 20th centuec
Practically impossible, I'd say. Romuva is a fringe movement, through and through, even if it has none of the neo-Nazi baggage some other neopagan religions have.
 
the need to be Christian to advance in your career, etc.

What? You know just attending church, listening, and claim you are a Christian doesn't actually make you a believer. What is the religious Police going to do if you practice your true beliefs in your home? There was no right of privacy from authorities back then, but I seriously doubt they were going into the house of every convert to check for paganism. Even the Spanish Inquisition left the vaaast majority of recent converts alon in their own homes, if only because there were easier targets (people openly defying the church)
 
Maybe like this: Orthodox Russians and Catholic Central Europe clash, both want Lithuania for themselves, and as a compromise, neither side will get it. Lithuania becomes a battlefield, but keeps the old religion.
 
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