AHC: African aircraft carriers

[absentminded]

1913 PoD gives alot of room?

what if all the former french colonies federate into a giant state? or ussr/prc type teal and industrialises brutally and overcompensates on military spending?
arab union happens somehow
Instead of WW2 happening Japan collapses and sells off its fleet, or the US or UK do that after the war?
after independence, no major power screws over newly independent nations for cold war or profit. The electric dams and junk gets built and industralisation happens so by the 80s its carrier building time?
African Union grows into a cross between EU/Nato and has its own army paid for by all members
Russia and America blow up the world and africas the only bit left so ends up with all the stuff

 

[Arkenfolm]

Assuming they could aford it, they'd still need to buy fighters and helis for it, plus build the harbour infrastructure to support it. Not to mention getting the escorts for it...

I'd think you'd want to mainly put COIN aircraft on the carrier. You'd do so out of necessity, since your nation has already blown most of the budget getting the carrier to begin with. You'd take what you could afford.

Given the small size of many African air forces, and the fact you'd be diverting so many resources from your nation's army as well, I'd expect this to be a decision of some coup leader who was also an admiral (which seems to be pretty rare in terms of military coup leaders). He'd face some serious challenges from his fellow officers, but if he could crush them he might be able to get such a carrier procured. This African admiral-president would have to be a very skilled and savy leader to control internal dissent.

Given how long it took to refit that one ship the Indian Navy bought, this is likely true (though it also had to undergo substantial upgrades like the addition of a second runway and ski-launch so if the African state wants the “standard” model, it might not take as long/cost as much money).

India did a ton of upgrades to the Baku/Admiral Gorshkov, which already was more advanced then the previous Kiev-class ships. I believe it was in better condition too than some of the other Kiev-class ships.

But even the Admiral Gorshkov as it was before India's refit, if equipped with some aircraft, would by itself be stronger than basically every African navy outside of maybe Egypt or South Africa, even if it's sitting in port for all but a few days out of the year. The carrier and its aircraft will be the majority of the military budget of whoever buys it (and only the biggest economies like Nigeria would be able to afford it), and the escort ships (probably less than a carrier which isn't an "aircraft cruiser") you'll want will further increase your spending, but having the largest navy in Africa must count for something, even if the majority of your population might beg to differ. Your carrier will also have trouble helping out during civil wars and putting down insurgencies, which has been one of the key missions of most African militaries. That will impact what's being launched from the carrier.

Still, while Admiral Gorshkov is nice, if I were an African leader who absolutely needed to have an aircraft carrier in my navy's arsenal, I'd look into a ship like Thailand's carrier.

 

[Hammerbolt]

Given the small size of many African air forces, and the fact you'd be diverting so many resources from your nation's army as well, I'd expect this to be a decision of some coup leader who was also an admiral (which seems to be pretty rare in terms of military coup leaders). He'd face some serious challenges from his fellow officers, but if he could crush them he might be able to get such a carrier procured. This African admiral-president would have to be a very skilled and savy leader to control internal dissent.

Intent is not capability. What general/admiral/supreme leader wants or intends to do with the carrier is irrelevant, and I'm sure there are multiple ways in which he could get either a 2nd-hand CV or a clone of the Thai model. Unless ie can support it with a proper harbour, that CV will soon become a floating barrack & storage barge...

 

[jsb]

Unless ie can support it with a proper harbour

OK, so we need a proper harbour and lots of money and we have tried South Africa and Egypt....

I have a new option since we have a 1913 POD,

Former French North Africa (yes I assume they would use a better name) what if a peaceful earlier decolonization left them much richer and united so a united Algeria & Tunisia.
Then later they absorb Morocco and split Libya with Egypt.

We then have a richer than OTL large nation with the old French WWI/II ports that could support battleships it would potentially want to be counted as a large regional power and be able to sail a CV to European exercises to be counted as a NATO power at least like Turkey and to dominate the African nations to the south on the west coast?

 

[Hammerbolt]

OK, so we need a proper harbour and lots of money and we have tried South Africa and Egypt....

I have a new option since we have a 1913 POD,

Former French North Africa (yes I assume they would use a better name) what if a peaceful earlier decolonization left them much richer and united so a united Algeria & Tunisia.
Then later they absorb Morocco and split Libya with Egypt.

We then have a richer than OTL large nation with the old French WWI/II ports that could support battleships it would potentially want to be counted as a large regional power and be able to sail a CV to European exercises to be counted as a NATO power at least like Turkey and to dominate the African nations to the south on the west coast?

That would certainly be a big country. Assuming they pursue a proper industrialization & modernization of the country, it would be a very powerfull nation.

 

[sloreck]

The problem with North Africa, and other resource rich countries, is that while they may have the money to buy a carrier and air wing, and even to pay for support, they don't have a local tech base and their populations are relatively small. You need a lot of trained and educated folks to keep a carrier in business, not just on the ship but the shore establishment and industrial base. When your population is relatively small, you industrial base almost non-existent, and the number of adequately educated folks small...

 

[Hammerbolt]

The problem with North Africa, and other resource rich countries, is that while they may have the money to buy a carrier and air wing, and even to pay for support, they don't have a local tech base and their populations are relatively small. You need a lot of trained and educated folks to keep a carrier in business, not just on the ship but the shore establishment and industrial base. When your population is relatively small, you industrial base almost non-existent, and the number of adequately educated folks small...

Which is why I wrote "pursue a proper industrialization & modernization of the country". Without that...

 

[Star Eater]

Not only would you need big industrial changes, you'd also need an African country to have the strategic need for a carrier. Carriers are generally offensive weapons as they're intended for power projection, and no African country really needs to project its power internationally unless it has a much more significant economy that gives it significant overseas interests. So, yeah, South Africa I guess. Never have apartheid, have it become a developed economy, and have India go communist. You'll see a light carrier waving their flag

 

[Hammerbolt]

Not only would you need big industrial changes, you'd also need an African country to have the strategic need for a carrier. Carriers are generally offensive weapons as they're intended for power projection,

Like Thailand? Or Brasil and Argentina, for that matter?

Carriers are also political weapons.

 

[Star Eater]

Like Thailand? Or Brasil and Argentina, for that matter?

Carriers are also political weapons.

If you need a political weapon then yeah South Africa definitely

 

[CraigD6]

Whilst not a single nation, and along the lines of the French Union idea posted already, could we somehow have a Commonwealth one?
The idea of a British Commonwealth was actually suggested and discussed long before it was formed under that name (a precursor was perhaps the Imperial Conferences, which predate the 1913 POD), and has many African member states. Assume that this was formed as a commonwealth earlier than in OTL, and had a more 'robust' framework that included military cooperation, would it be possible that a 'Commonwealth Squadron' was formed, using the vessels to police the waters around the various nations. Initially equipped with a few older destroyer and gunboat class vessels with really just a littoral role around the African coastline. Crews would be a mix, a core of Royal Navy personnel with members from the various countries involved filling out the crew. It would be a way of providing security, training and experience to these nations, which would be a boon for them come independence. They would use facilities in South Africa, and Royal Navy bases 'east of Suez', thus not needing a single nation to provide all of the infrastructure. With the start of WWII, the squadron would be expanded and gets a CVL/CVE or two, and operate on the edge of the main North Atlantic routes and tracking commerce raiders heading further south. After the war, perhaps they manage to keep one in operation for some time before independence splits the squadron into smaller national assets, at which point the carrier is either scrapped or passed to one of the larger states, Kenya or Nigeria perhaps, before they find that no one is able to afford keeping a carrier operational.

 

[Wickedultimate]

With a 1913 POD, have an African nation develop a conventional (STOBAR or CATOBAR) carrier capability.

With African countries pretty poor their aircraft carriers would probably be 1. Out of date or 2. They would be poorly built and lack defenses.

 

[Kalga]

With African countries pretty poor their aircraft carriers would probably be 1. Out of date or 2. They would be poorly built and lack defenses.

So? It's not like they're expected to fight against a major power or anything. The biggest question/problem is: "what are they actually gonna do with one of them beside compensating for a small GDP?"

 

[riggerrob]

WI an African nation had a long, mountainous coastline with few ports?
Then an aircraft carrier makes for bombing rebels.

TBH this scenario makes more sense along the mountainous west coast of the Americas.

 

[juanml82]

So? It's not like they're expected to fight against a major power or anything. The biggest question/problem is: "what are they actually gonna do with one of them beside compensating for a small GDP?"

Threaten their neighbours and curry favor with the USA whenever the USA decides it's time to bomb someone by sending their carrier to prove the world it's a multilateral coalition instead of Yankee imperialism (but as long as the USA pays the bills for that)

 

[Zheng He]

Like Thailand? Or Brasil and Argentina, for that matter?

Carriers are also political weapons.

That's the point I've been trying to make since the beginning of this thread.