AHC: A Polonophilic Imperial Germany

CaliGuy

Banned
Here's a fun AHC for you: Make Imperial Germany Polonophilic. Specifically, have it pursue policies which are friendly towards its Polish population.

Also, how would a Polonophilic Imperial Germany have affected World War I? Specifically, would Imperial Germany try creating a beefed-up SuperPoland in this TL?
 
Here's a fun AHC for you: Make Imperial Germany Polonophilic. Specifically, have it pursue policies which are friendly towards its Polish population.

Also, how would a Polonophilic Imperial Germany have affected World War I? Specifically, would Imperial Germany try creating a beefed-up SuperPoland in this TL?
This is more pre- 1900 but maybe if Poland delayed their revolt to one post 1870 the germans might consider a friendly (with a hohenzollern or wettin in the throne) Poland as the perfect Russian buffer might work.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
This is more pre- 1900

I post this in the post-1900 section because it might have effects on World War I. However, you might be correct that this thread should be moved.

but maybe if Poland delayed their revolt to one post 1870 the germans might consider a friendly (with a hohenzollern or wettin in the throne) Poland as the perfect Russian buffer might work.

You'd have to make Imperial Germany actually willing to fight on Poland's behalf in such a scenario, though.

Indeed, I was thinking of having Imperial Germany first treat its own Poles well and later create a beefed-up SuperPoland during World War I.
 

nbcman

Donor
If some or all of the Duchy of Warsaw stays in personal union with the Kingdom of Saxony at the Congress of Vienna, the Saxons & Prussians may want to enlarge their holdings in the former Polish area from the Russians. But this would take a huge change in the mid to late 1800's German views of Russia and the revolutionary elements in Poland and Lithuania.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
Somebody besides Prussia needs to form Germany. Saxony and Austria are more likely to see Poland as an ally against Russia, maybe they could work.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
If some or all of the Duchy of Warsaw stays in personal union with the Kingdom of Saxony at the Congress of Vienna, the Saxons & Prussians may want to enlarge their holdings in the former Polish area from the Russians. But this would take a huge change in the mid to late 1800's German views of Russia and the revolutionary elements in Poland and Lithuania.
How exactly do you make the first part happen, though?

Somebody besides Prussia needs to form Germany. Saxony and Austria are more likely to see Poland as an ally against Russia, maybe they could work.
Did Austria actually want to unite all of Germany--including its Protestant areas?

As for Saxony, did it want to do this and did it have the power to do this?
 
You could have an alternative Volkisch movement that considers the Germans, Slavs and Balts brother tribes who collectively lived free against the corrupt and decadent Roman Latin peoples.
 
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CaliGuy

Banned
You could have an alternative Volkisch movement that considers the Germans, Slavs and Balts who collectively lived free against the corrupt and decadent Roman Latin people's.
Now this would be interesting. Indeed, in such an ideology, the Ostsiedlung could (often rightly) be portrayed as being a case of peaceful German-Slavic coexistence. :)
 
Well, The Germans need to rest assured that a Polish King wouldn't want whatever land taken from Germany after OTL WW2. If they are sure of that, I guess we have more room to explore.
 
Well, The Germans need to rest assured that a Polish King wouldn't want whatever land taken from Germany after OTL WW2. If they are sure of that, I guess we have more room to explore.
why a pre 1900 POD either war is butterfly away, again depend how that poland is created, in a AAR i created a poland for Wilhem III to rule till he become the Prussian king and German Emperor like the Great Prince of Poland(like a german prince of wales) and they were barely able to wrestle some of posen as a gift and share Danzing as a free port.
 
I think it would be as easy as Russia getting poznan in the polish Saxon crisis without it Germany should be able to germanize it's remaining polish areas to point were a freed Poland wouldn't really have anygrounds to claim those areas
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I think it would be as easy as Russia getting poznan in the polish Saxon crisis without it Germany should be able to germanize it's remaining polish areas to point were a freed Poland wouldn't really have anygrounds to claim those areas
Forcibly assimilating Poles isn't very Polonophilic, though.
 

Deleted member 97083

You could have an alternative Volkisch movement that considers the Germans, Slavs and Balts brother tribes who collectively lived free against the corrupt and decadent Roman Latin peoples.
From Wikipedia:

Nietzsche wrote in 1888, "My ancestors were Polish noblemen (Nietzky); the type seems to have been well preserved despite three generations of German mothers." At one point Nietzsche becomes even more adamant about his Polish identity. "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood." On yet another occasion Nietzsche stated, "Germany is a great nation only because its people have so much Polish blood in their veins [...] I am proud of my Polish descent." Nietzsche believed his name might have been Germanized, in one letter claiming, "I was taught to ascribe the origin of my blood and name to Polish noblemen who were called Niëtzky and left their home and nobleness about a hundred years ago, finally yielding to unbearable suppression: they were Protestants."
 
From Wikipedia:

Nietzsche wrote in 1888, "My ancestors were Polish noblemen (Nietzky); the type seems to have been well preserved despite three generations of German mothers." At one point Nietzsche becomes even more adamant about his Polish identity. "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood." On yet another occasion Nietzsche stated, "Germany is a great nation only because its people have so much Polish blood in their veins [...] I am proud of my Polish descent." Nietzsche believed his name might have been Germanized, in one letter claiming, "I was taught to ascribe the origin of my blood and name to Polish noblemen who were called Niëtzky and left their home and nobleness about a hundred years ago, finally yielding to unbearable suppression: they were Protestants."
Reminds me of somethign I once found on Wikipedia about the Germans believing the Poles would have been excellent for integrating into Germany, if not for their fierce and proud Polish national conciousness. Didn't have sources and I assumed it was just some Neo-Nazi trying to smooth over the reasonable openess of White Nationalists with Slavic Nationalists (With a capital SN) in Eastern Europe, Still interesting. Looking at Wikiepida though, the thing you qoute was followed by several paragraphs saying how unlikely it was. It still does say something if a person so proudly claimed himself to be Polish rather than German. Might just be the pride of wanting to claim to be a member of the nobility. Still, this wasn't a normal man. Considering he once said that the first thing he would have do if he came into power was to have all anti-Semites shot. I was going to say this would be an uncommon thing to say among Poles and Germans back then, but looking it up it seems to be a joke on his part. Which was perhaps


Nietzsche said:
To friend Overbeck and wife.

Although you have so far demonstrated little faith in my ability to pay, I yet hope to demonstrate that I am somebody who pays his debts?for example, to you. I am just having all anti-Semites shot.

Dionysus

Anyways, perhaps we can find some early, friendly mergers of the Wettin and Hohenzollern houses? Should bring together Bradenberg, Sazony, Thuringia, and upper Bavaria in a group of dynasticall tied areas, and the then spin things around with Prussia and Poland. Maybe find a way in which the HRE portions seperate from those outside of it? Perhaps have Silesia Pomerania, and Prussia fusing and mizing with a rump Poland.
 
Forcibly assimilating Poles isn't very Polonophilic, though.
If you are Germany you need to get the poles in your territory to become Germans or you cant really trust an independent Poland when it really counts.
In the same way other countries couldn't trust Germany with Germans in their own territory? Alright, maybe a bad example. Not that the local Germans were traitors, but that Berlin would use it as an excuse to move in. And the Germans did want some Poles around to do cheap work. Maybe getting some system together where people work on contract and money is given both to them and the state? And if the Germans only have a very little bit of Posen, then then should have no issues in keeping it slightly independent. Then they can someday give it to Poland (while seizing the Baltic for themselves) and be seen as the patrons of the Poles. Of course this involves the Germans keeping the ports and coast for themselves, meaning they can do what they did before and during the partitions in order to squeeze the Polish economy, but what can you do?
 

Ritos

Banned
In the same way other countries couldn't trust Germany with Germans in their own territory? Alright, maybe a bad example. Not that the local Germans were traitors, but that Berlin would use it as an excuse to move in. And the Germans did want some Poles around to do cheap work. Maybe getting some system together where people work on contract and money is given both to them and the state? And if the Germans only have a very little bit of Posen, then then should have no issues in keeping it slightly independent. Then they can someday give it to Poland (while seizing the Baltic for themselves) and be seen as the patrons of the Poles. Of course this involves the Germans keeping the ports and coast for themselves, meaning they can do what they did before and during the partitions in order to squeeze the Polish economy, but what can you do?
I've never understood the whole trope of an imperial Germany that wishes to free their own poles, and, wants rule over the Balts. The baltics were only ever ~10 % German, the polish parts of the German empire were about the same, or more German, also, the land itself is more contiguous, the people more accustomed to German rule, and being part of Prussia since 1815, could be considered an integral part of the German state in a way the Baltic duchy could never be.
 
I've never understood the whole trope of an imperial Germany that wishes to free their own poles, and, wants rule over the Balts. The baltics were only ever ~10 % German, the polish parts of the German empire were about the same, or more German, also, the land itself is more contiguous, the people more accustomed to German rule, and being part of Prussia since 1815, could be considered an integral part of the German state in a way the Baltic duchy could never be.
Don't worry, I am not much of a supporter of either idea. I think they would go for economic domination over both. Might grab more land form the Poles for the Junkers in another scenario, but the one I was refering to was the suggestion that the Prssians would give up all but a sliver of Posen in exchange for taking Saxony for themselves. With some butterflies of no Prussian Rhineland? Unsure. I simply figured that the Germans would not see the cultural liquidation of a bunch of cheap laborers in an area smaller than Dutch Limburg as the only way they could trust a Polish state.
 
I think in order for a German Empire to develop polonophilia then Poland needs to be weak enough to be nonthreatening as a neighbour but strong enough for its attributes to be admired.
The only way I can think of is to avoid union with Lithuania and match Christian denominations.
 
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