AHC: A Nordic great power

I think you need to get the Nordic countries united for it ever having a chance of being a great power.

But maybe if Sweden-Norway had helped Denmark during the war of 1864 and having a more competent politicians for Denmark (which probably would butterfly the war) but if it diden't and Denmark + Sweden-Norway could get a status quo so Denmark does not loose the duchy's, this will mean that pan-scandinavianism would not die out. Then around ww1 by threats from Germany or Russia they might unite into a single country. the problem is that the 3 countries has vastly different interests and who they see as enemies and friends:
from Von-adler when i searched pan-scandinavianism:

It is possible, but there's going to be a lot of friction.

The Norweigans are pretty much content. They'll want a decent navy to protect fishing rights and their vast merchant fleet, but not much more. It will be difficult to make them form a large and heavily equipped land army (after 1905, they reduced their armed forces at an amazing rate, probably worse than any other state in Europe). The Norweigans are aligned mostly with the British in a maritime trade interests. They close ties to the UK and almost none to continental Europe. Their economy is based on fishing, their big merchant fleet and some agriculture and foresting. Industry is mainly based around a small warf industry. Overall, they are rural, isolationist, poor and British-aligned.

The Swedes see the Russians as the big enemy. The loss of Finland is still not forgotten, and to get the Åland islands back is high on the priority list.Sweden maintains a decent military establishment and a rather strong navy for such a small nation. The country is rather rich, with sizable ore and wood assets and is already industrialising in the 1860s. The industrial, economical and social elite have close ties with Germany from the 1880s and onwards - it was not until the end of ww2 that English replaced German as the main second language of Swedes. The economy is diverse, with a decent merchant navy, industry based upon Swedish innovations (the wrench, the AGA lighthouse, the ball bearing, the dynamite, the safety match, etc.), some agriculture, a big wood and paper industry, some textile industry, some warfs etc. Overall, they are indutrialising, but still rather rural, isolationist (although that is not written in stone), prosperous and German-aligned as well as deeply anti-Russian.

The Danes see Prussia/Germany as the big enemy. They want Schleswig and they want it bad. They won 1848 and are confident they can win again in 1864. The country is rather rich, with a small industry based around a prosperous and productive agricultural sector. Beer is becoming big already. The Danish agricultural sector can support about 15 million people alone, a good thing considering that neither Sweden nor Norway are completely self-sufficient by the end of the 1800s. The Danes have a decent army and a decent navy. Theyä're somewhat rural, expansionist, prosperous and anti-German.

As you can see, the economical and political goals of the nations will cause some serious friction. If the Danes can get Schleswig through negotiations, I can see it work. I don't see the Norweigans being happy about dying for Danish interests (the Swedes flocked to volunteer units though).

Pan-scandinavianism will run high if any of the countries are attacked, but the Norweigans will start trying to get out if they have to support either Swedish or Danish expansionism with blood.

If Sweden ends up dominating, it could perhaps be lured into ww1 to regain Finland, on the German side. That would probably cause Norway to leave, they would NOT want to end up under a British blockade.

A British blockade against the union (which happened to Sweden during ww1, due to selling food to the Germans, and I see no way to prevent the Danes from doing that) would be disastrous to the Norweigans.

Lots of problems, the only real way the union could exist would be as a neutral, isolationist bloc.
 
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I think you need to get the Nordic countries united for it ever having a chance of being a great power.

But maybe if Sweden-Norway had helped Denmark during the war of 1864 and having a more competent politicians for Denmark (which probably would butterfly the war) but if it diden't and Denmark + Sweden-Norway could get a status quo so Denmark does not loose the duchy's, this will mean that pan-scandinavianism would not die out. Then around ww1 by threats from Germany or Russia they might unite into a single country. the problem is that the 3 countries has vastly different interests and who they see as enemies and friends:
from Von-adler when i searched pan-scandinavianism:

The problem was that the London Treaty of 1851 very much blocked any other result than OTL.
You would have to go back to 1848 to get some other outcome of the 1. Schleswig War to possibly get Slesvig out of German grips. If not you very much end up with the OTL situation.

There was some small chances of improving Danish military and political performance prior to and during 1864; get more funds for fortifications and more armoured ships and don't reform the Army on the ewe of battle!
The money was there just no will to spend it due to selfdilusion of having won the first war...!
That may buy Denmark a few more months in which to maybe get the Scandinavians along or have the Great Powers intervene.

Still there is the major problem of the three countries having vastly different security outlooks!
 
What about a much harder fought victory in the first war, making the politicians not so over confident in the Danish military as it was up to the second war, prompting increased spending in the military and the fortifications. bonus point if the Swedish brigade stationed on Funen in the first war is also a part of this harder fought war, making it a Scandinavian victory instead of a Danish one. increasing the Pan-scandinavian feeling instead of the Danish nationalism that it was OTL
 
You do have a point and I did think of it when typing.
Problem is that the major Great Power of 1850 - Russia or rather its Tsar didn't want to see democracy installed in Denmark or the Duchies or any other combination so no matter what way the Danes would win he would probably be insistant on the OTL equal representation... which would foil any attempts at compromise.

Though perhaps a limited Danish victory in which Denmark manages to contain fighting to the Duchies making it a German affair may help - say with Great Powers approval of containing the conflict and forcing Prussia out as OTL.
Denmark might be able to defeat the rebels in Slesvig forcing them out of that duchy but unable to reenter Holstein (-Lauenburg).
Then by conference Denmark have to agree to a referendum in the duchies by which Slesvig would become a Danish Duchy and Holstein and Lauenburg independent principalities members of the German Confederation.
Without Bismarck about stuff might be doable. Though difficult.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
The interests of the three Scandinavian countries were very different. Norway was a part of Sweden, but very autonomous. As mentioned above: Denmark feared Prussia, want to keep Schleswig, and maybe Holstein and Lauenburg, bu definitely Schleswig.
Sweden want Finland back somehow, and isn't fond of Russia.
And Norway don't want to be dragged into war, just continue their Atlantic trade with Britain.
 
could the OTL system not work if the people went for the Helstat solution instead of the "Denmark to Eidern" that Danes in the period wanted.
if the Danes wanted the entire realm to stay together, the politicians would then not try to integrate Schleswig removing the Prussian casus belli.

That together with a harder fought first war with some Swedish help so it is seen as an Scandinavian victory.

Then we have a Denmark that has spend more money on the military actually making it an actually pain to invade, you also have increased pan-Scandinavianism which mean when Denmark get to blows with Prussia/Germany over Holstein more likely chance for Swedish-Norwegian help.

which if then a success again will increase pan-Scandinavianism which should make a union possible, with the Germans seen as the enemy.

the reason i am trying to include Holstein is that the thread is about a Nordic great power, and what a Nordic great power need is population. now you just need Finland also gaining even more people, which is needed since both Russia and Germany will be seen as the bad guys.
 
could the OTL system not work if the people went for the Helstat solution instead of the "Denmark to Eidern" that Danes in the period wanted.
if the Danes wanted the entire realm to stay together, the politicians would then not try to integrate Schleswig removing the Prussian casus belli.

It was more complex than that - you couldn't separate Slesvig from the other duchies and you conldn't have a Helstat because each autocratic ruled duchy would have equal representation of the Kingdom which was an impossible to the new democratic parliament of the Kingdom.

Whichever way around you would run into a wall.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
could the OTL system not work if the people went for the Helstat solution instead of the "Denmark to Eidern" that Danes in the period wanted.
if the Danes wanted the entire realm to stay together, the politicians would then not try to integrate Schleswig removing the Prussian casus belli.

That together with a harder fought first war with some Swedish help so it is seen as an Scandinavian victory.

Then we have a Denmark that has spend more money on the military actually making it an actually pain to invade, you also have increased pan-Scandinavianism which mean when Denmark get to blows with Prussia/Germany over Holstein more likely chance for Swedish-Norwegian help.

which if then a success again will increase pan-Scandinavianism which should make a union possible, with the Germans seen as the enemy.

the reason i am trying to include Holstein is that the thread is about a Nordic great power, and what a Nordic great power need is population. now you just need Finland also gaining even more people, which is needed since both Russia and Germany will be seen as the bad guys.

A Nordic Great Power isn't just in desperate need of people, but of loyal people. I doubt the German speaking population of Holstein would have any loyalty to the Scandinavian state, and regarding the Finns, it's hard to say, since the Finnish national identity was awakening. Not to mention that the Scandinavian identity would have a hard time in rivalry with the already existing Swedish and Danish national identities, as well as the very quickly awakening Norwegian national identity.
 
With any POD from 1830 onwards, elevate a Nordic country to great power status by either late 19th or early 20th century.
As has been mentioned, none of the countries could be a power in this period unless it has a massive immigration, similar to the US, but that might be too difficult to support, and where should people come from? Besides, a large part of the population left these countries for better opportunities abroad, so immigration is not an available solution.

The easier way out is uniting the Nordic, Baltic and Benelux countries in the early 1920s, equalling France in population, but this suggestion usually falls due to everyone's petty squabbles and thus they all fall prey to Germany and Russia twenty years later. :(

Another way would be electing the Czar of Russia as King of Sweden in 1809. The Finnish influence in Russia during the 1800s was huge, and perhaps this multiplies that a few times if all of Sweden is in Russia - things would be very different, but a more Nordic Russia might not be what the OP asks for.

Perhaps Denmark could try to unite the non-Prussian northern parts of Germany, Mecklenburg, Hanover, Saxony, Hesse, Hesse-Cassel, Oldenburg, Nassau, Thuringia and some smaller lands, with itself to form a new power and counter Prussian dominance.
 
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