AHC: A non-ASB German victory in Barbarossa

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
Sure, but improving the June to October German performance is like saying that Mclaren could have done better in the 1988 F1 world championship...
(they won every race but one and took every pole but one, if you're not a F1 fan)

Not quite - but anything but an eventual loss takes a lot of statistically unlikely probabilities coming up.

As I said even a 1:100,000,000 chance comes up eventually.....

I have read that it is technically possible for a 6pdr to knock out a tiger - if it gets a hit on the gun mantle into the deck armor.

Germany winning would be like an A/T crew knocking out a whole company of Tigers one after the other whilst not being hit themselves.

It might happen statistically but nobody would want to be that crew.....
 
Since almost all soviet Forces in the west in June 1941 were destroyed OTL, having them destroyed in Poland instead of inside Russia does nothing for the balance of forces and places the germans a lot further from Moscow and the Volga.

Well, i disagree - practically all the disadvantages the germans had inside russia wawed away (for a certain percent, of course). For example, no (several) hundred km marches stress the armored/motorized/horse drawn/leg columns less - however, the same applies to the soviets too, so the whole initial campaign could be a lot more different. Or the LW could concentrate its efforts more, preserve forces more, etc...

Geographically of course, it did not get them closer to the AA line, but the effective grinding down of soviet overall military capacity could easily happened this way - and imho the avoidance of typhoon/moscow counter offensive, or the whole stalingrad/uranus (and instead of those, maybe a 2nd harkov or 2nd shock army or mars, but that would be too "germanwank" without the disasters) would not make the soviet life easier.
 
While fighting in Poland would create some tactical and operational benefits for Germans, it would also mean that Soviet Union gets to fight with their entire population and industrial capacity still intact. That cannot be a good thing for the Germans.
 
Have the Nazis be nice to people for a change and not alienate the many many people who hated the USSR? But how to do that? Have Hitler grow a brain and decide war first atrocities second?
 
While fighting in Poland would create some tactical and operational benefits for Germans, it would also mean that Soviet Union gets to fight with their entire population and industrial capacity still intact. That cannot be a good thing for the Germans.


who, after winning the battle for Poland, would still need to do all the marching and driving they did in OTL...
 
Have the Nazis be nice to people for a change and not alienate the many many people who hated the USSR? But how to do that? Have Hitler grow a brain and decide war first atrocities second?

And now we need to go back to the Hunger Plan. The plan itself was not even Hitler's idea. It was the idea of people who were tasked to produce a workable plan to 'employ' 4 million people in an invasion of their greatest food supplier and unable to come up with solution to feed those troops, the people at home and newly conquered subjects faced with a net deficit of grain and animal fodder. In this equation something had to give. Unsurprisingly that 'something' were newly conquered subjects.
 
While fighting in Poland would create some tactical and operational benefits for Germans, it would also mean that Soviet Union gets to fight with their entire population and industrial capacity still intact. That cannot be a good thing for the Germans.

For more or less, the germans had to fight almost the entire "valuable" (poor choice of words, but..) population of the SU - after the attack, the SU made some great efforts to evacuate the "valuable" population (for example, when they moved the industry, they moved the workers too) and they blitz-constripted the able male population (sometimes i wonder, that not Zhukov saved Moscow, but the soviet buerocracy). At least, they seriusly tried.
While i did not seen nowhere - and likely, i will not see any in the near future, since not too many historians got into the archives of Moscow - any reliable statistics or records, how many military aged male and industrial worker got evacuated, it seems, that they were quite succesful. Same applies to the industrial capacity - of course, the loss of the Donetsk-Kharkov region or the (partial) blockade of Leningrad (and the evacuation itself) did not helped the overall equipment/supply situation of the SU, but together with the LL, they could overcame.
Question is, will they get the LL if they attack? I say, yes - after all, the Uk and US still want to defeat germany - and that meant more tanks/planes/guns for the RA. Question again: could that soviet material gain outweight the skill/manpower/supply loss? Could the germans in this situation (lets say, one month extensive fighting in Poland until the RA front elements get destroyed) couterattack and reach their operation limits (and during that destroying the second "wave" of soviet armies)? Well, i think, yes, a sucessful counterattack would be as disastrous for the soviets, as the first phase of the Barbarossa, and now they are one failed effort behind OTL - overall in a worse state.
 
Well, i think, yes, a sucessful counterattack would be as disastrous for the soviets, as the first phase of the Barbarossa, and now they are one failed effort behind OTL - overall in a worse state.

Not so easy. The Germans now have to counterattack confronting alerted and ready second and third echelon troops. Industries that were uprooted by evacuation could immediately start churning out the equipment. Most importantly Red Air Force would not lose all those airplanes sitting on the ground.

The initial success of the Operation Barbarossa owed much to the fact Soviet Union was caught sleeping (in some cases literally). Without surprise, I do not see the Germans managing half as good as in OTL.
 
Not so easy. The Germans now have to counterattack confronting alerted and ready second and third echelon troops. Industries that were uprooted by evacuation could immediately start churning out the equipment. Most importantly Red Air Force would not lose all those airplanes sitting on the ground.

The initial success of the Operation Barbarossa owed much to the fact Soviet Union was caught sleeping (in some cases literally). Without surprise, I do not see the Germans managing half as good as in OTL.

Well, you have a point - i think, this thing grown far too complex in theory to game it, without a proper POD and without information about the situation after a failed (well, they may even be victorious) soviet attack.

Is the phrase "too many butterflies" fits? :)
 
My point exactly. I myself am far more interested in the thousands of POD's provided by the Interwar period of 1919 to 1939, and yet those POD's get drowned out. So once and for all Im challenging the people of this board to actually make Operation Barbarossa succeed. Once they figure out it's a useless endeavor, hopefully the whole thing will be put to rest. Thats far to much to hope for though.

That doesn't work for one side only, changes in German behavior means changes in Soviet behavior. The Germans only got as far as thay did OTL due to surprise & luck. Both of which could be butterflied by greater perpetration.

The Soviets may strike first, which despite wishful thinking from an AH author actually benefits them greatly. Since the Red Army at the time was geared towards pre-emptive defense & offensive warfare. Due to Stalinist whimsy.
 
Top