Title says it all. The state must not be a colony.
Bonus points if you can get this christian kingdom to be a regional power.
Bonus points if you can get this christian kingdom to be a regional power.
AHC: a native christian kingdom in India or Indonesia
- Thread starter GauchoBadger
- Start date
When's the POD? More Christianity in Arabia and Persia (plus Africa as in OTL) could lead to the conversion of a king in the Kerala region. It's probably a longshot to get a St. Thomas Christian state in India, but if you did, they might be able to influence a state in Indonesia to convert as well (after Christianity spreads more than OTL there, of course).
If Persia converted to Christianity, then it's probably inevitable some Indian state would convert at some point, and possibly might be a regional power. I think it would be a lot harder if Persia didn't convert to have a Christian state in India, and they'd probably be a smaller state (although probably rich because of Indian Ocean trade).
If Persia converted to Christianity, then it's probably inevitable some Indian state would convert at some point, and possibly might be a regional power. I think it would be a lot harder if Persia didn't convert to have a Christian state in India, and they'd probably be a smaller state (although probably rich because of Indian Ocean trade).
It's really hard to get a Christian state in India. But sure, I'll go for it.
Let's say that somehow, the British Empire collapses. I dunno, maybe the isles see some sort of revolution in the nineteenth century. Then, the British folk stranded in India proclaim independence as an exile state. Such a state would collapse pretty quickly, considering how it would just consist of a few thousand British people among hundreds of millions of angry Indians, but it would be a Christian state in India, and thus fulfilling your challenge.
Let's say that somehow, the British Empire collapses. I dunno, maybe the isles see some sort of revolution in the nineteenth century. Then, the British folk stranded in India proclaim independence as an exile state. Such a state would collapse pretty quickly, considering how it would just consist of a few thousand British people among hundreds of millions of angry Indians, but it would be a Christian state in India, and thus fulfilling your challenge.
Riain
Banned
Islamic powers invaded India and established Kingdoms/Empires over the largely Hindu population, so maybe a small kingdom can arise from the St Thomas Christians in Kerala. Perhaps a bit like what happened during the Crusades with Georgia the Portuguese could create the conditions where a Christian kingdom could arise in the shadow of the Portuguese empire.
There's also the potential in the late 19th century onward for a group like the Nagas or Kukis to get independence. Probably not likely, but in theory, if any of these groups got independence and formed their own state, it would be a Christian majority state with a Christian ruling class, a Protestant one at that.
The problem is that it technically doesn't fulfill the challenge because it's highly, highly unlikely for this state to be a monarchy, barring some Bokassa-esque situation.
An independent Republic of South Maluku (more likely than an independent Naga or Kuki state) would also have a Christian majority, but likewise also not be a kingdom, unless they recognise the Dutch monarch as head-of-state, in which case that would probably count as a colony of some sort.
The problem is that it technically doesn't fulfill the challenge because it's highly, highly unlikely for this state to be a monarchy, barring some Bokassa-esque situation.
An independent Republic of South Maluku (more likely than an independent Naga or Kuki state) would also have a Christian majority, but likewise also not be a kingdom, unless they recognise the Dutch monarch as head-of-state, in which case that would probably count as a colony of some sort.
Sarawak was an independent state until 1888, after which it became a protectorate until after WWII. I wouldn't say it was a full-out Christian state though, given that it was mostly administered through a Malay class of civil servants. Conversion of the native Dayaks was a thing, but it was slow and fragmented, with many tribes in the interior not becoming Christian until the 1900's.
East Timor ? Otherwise a Christian dominated Arabia exports Christianity to Indonesia that is adapted.
The British state takes control away from the EIC via Burke's East India bill being successful in the late 1700s. The administrators of India become much more the type of aristocrat that believes in spreanding "civilisation and Christianity" to the pagans. As the English elite were much more religious in the 1700s than the 1800s, many more missionary societies are setup and the Raj has much more of a policy of spreading Christianity. Come independence, 5-10% of the Indian population are Christians, including a majority in Kerala. USSR is butterflied, meaning the Brits aren't so enamoured with a centralised state. India is given independence as dozens of states, in a loose federation. Majority Christian Kerala is one of them.
How about a stronger Portuguese presence in India and instead of becoming combative with Indian Christians they give them preferential treatment as a tool for conversion. As Portuguese power grows one of the local Indian states converts to Christianity to ensure their political and military support.
The British tried that, and it was one of the causes of the Indian Mutiny that almost removed them from power in much of the Indian subcontinent.
Converting India is a highly difficult process, as many found out. Even Islam could "only" convert 30% of the population of the Indian subcontinent after Muslim empires ruled India for many centuries, with some Muslim states even pursuing iconoclasm.
Not to mention, one of the factors that limited Portuguese colonialism in India was a fear that the Portuguese and Jesuits would convert India to Christianity.
Skallagrim
Banned
Not really a 'power' of any weight, since it was a very minor state (it doesn't even have an English-language wipedia page), but the Flores-based Larantuka Kingdom kind of fits the bill for Indonesia. Around 1665, King Ola Adobala was baptised as a catholic, and the kingdom - now a Portuguese protectorate - gradually christianised. (The right of protectorate over the kingdom was ultimately bought by the Dutch, who later dissolved the kingdom an annexed its territory outright.)
No, they didn't. They actively discouraged missionary movements during their period of rule.
Yes, it's likely to cause more instability. That doesn't mean they are guaranteed to get kicked out.
That was a direct result of the Mutiny.
You see, before 1857, the British pretended to merely be tax collectors of the puppet Mughal Emperor. In the 1830s and 40s, missionary activity began to increase, which angered many Indians, including the puppet emperor. And so, a sepoy mutiny was supported by the Mughal emperor, turning it into a massive rebellion. Afterwards, they made their rule of the subcontinent official, and took steps to stop rebellions from happening, such as limiting missionary activity.
So yeah, retaining missionary activity would cause British India to be immensely rebellious.
So the real challenge is doing this with a POD before European colonialism and after the establishment of Islam.
The temptation is to try for India, but IMO that's fool's gold. I mean you might be able to do something with the Thomas Christians but it'd be pocket-sized.
No, what I'd try here is Indonesia via China.
So let's go the Church of the East route. The sheer spread of the Syriac missionary enterprise is pretty staggering. If you can somehow get the Church of the East to survive as at least a tolerated minority beyond the rise of the Tang dynasty, it's possible they become involved in the Southeast Asian trade. We know that some trade between China and Srivijaya existed.
Now, assume the Chinese Nestorians get the bright idea of building ITTL Malacca, in order to control the straits. This gives them an opportunity to start spreading Christianity into the archipelago. If they are successful in converting one of the kingdoms in Java or Sumatra, you'd have your Christian state. I sincerely doubt this butterflies Islamization, since that was a long, drawn-out process occurring in several waves [some argue it's still ongoing]. So you would have Hindu-Buddhist, Muslim and Christian states all in competition by the time the colonizers show up.
Actually, that'd be quite an interesting TL if one could pull it off.
The temptation is to try for India, but IMO that's fool's gold. I mean you might be able to do something with the Thomas Christians but it'd be pocket-sized.
No, what I'd try here is Indonesia via China.
So let's go the Church of the East route. The sheer spread of the Syriac missionary enterprise is pretty staggering. If you can somehow get the Church of the East to survive as at least a tolerated minority beyond the rise of the Tang dynasty, it's possible they become involved in the Southeast Asian trade. We know that some trade between China and Srivijaya existed.
Now, assume the Chinese Nestorians get the bright idea of building ITTL Malacca, in order to control the straits. This gives them an opportunity to start spreading Christianity into the archipelago. If they are successful in converting one of the kingdoms in Java or Sumatra, you'd have your Christian state. I sincerely doubt this butterflies Islamization, since that was a long, drawn-out process occurring in several waves [some argue it's still ongoing]. So you would have Hindu-Buddhist, Muslim and Christian states all in competition by the time the colonizers show up.
Actually, that'd be quite an interesting TL if one could pull it off.
This is quite simply completely untrue. The EIC defined their rule in terms of trade and actively discouraged missionary activity as it got in the way of the process of making money. In addition, the types of people that staffed the EIC were the less reputable types who were willing to risk a serious threat of dying of disease to make money, and often those who could not get officer roles in the Royal Navy or British Army. The only threat that came from encouraging missionary activity was when the British parliament renewed their charter every so often, and people like Wilburforce would push for it to be included in their charter, but the EIC fought it off every time except one. Even with it, they slowwalked it.
I'd add to this that, far from decreasing, missionary activity dramatically increased post-mutiny, though it was particularly non-state-directed missionary activity. Woodberry covers this well in his APSR article from 2011.
Flocculencio
Donor
The Portuguese weren't at all on board with the St Thomas Christians, though, and treated them as heretics. Any possibility for a Christian kingdom in Kerala would come with the much larger group of lower-caste Hindu communities who converted to Catholicism. Perhaps a more protracted struggle for power which left the established Hindu hierarchies devastated, leaving a vacuum to be filled from up-and-coming opportunists from the Catholic converts? I'm thinking some guy manages to get the Portuguese to declare him King Joao I of Cochin and then games the system to establish dominance in Central Kerala that leaves his dynasty in a position to dominate politics on the Malabar coast even after Portuguese power fades.
That, or get, say, France to colonize India. France was much more amenable to the creation of brown Frenchmen, so to speak, and so you get a class of mixed-race Catholics, probably known as Metis. Eventually, France's issues bite it in the ass and it falls into revolution, but then the mixed-race class establishes a Royaume de l'Inde in exile. I doubt that such a kingdom would be able to persist for very long, what with it probably consisting of a few thousand mixed-race folk in a country with millions of angry Indians, but it fulfils the OP.
Riain
Banned
I was thinking less as partners of the Portuguese within Portuguese territory and more as neighbors and allies. The Portuguese have their own territories and a small polity next door is claimed and ruled by the StTCs, the Portuguese accept them as handy allies who are heretics rather than heathens and pagans.
Edit: sorry Flocc, I didn't realise it was you.