AHC: A more successful and early Anarcho-Capitalist movement?

Outside of the United States and the internet, anarcho-capitalists are a rare breed. What POD could change this?

The reason I have chose the pre 1900 forum despite the an-cap movement beginning in earnest midway through the 20th century is because I believe it would have been far more successful if it had more time to develop/ it could attach itself earlier to various philosophies that were more widely accepted at the time. An earlier an-cap movement would also avoid the issues that a post nuclear world and the Cold War would cause the ideology.

Bonus points if you get somebody like Marx to become an an-cap or Randian XD.

P.s. By successful it doesn't have to control territory etc, just to be something well known enough that outside of the US everybody is aware of the base principles like socialism or normal anarchism.
 
It could be an offshoot of Classical Liberalism, but the problem is that back in the age of 10 year olds pulling 14 hour shifts the only people who could actually believe the upper classes would be better if only you gave them more freedom was the upper classes themselves, and not the members of the First and Second Estates, and not anybody with significant influence in politics which leaves...

Bourgeois living in ultra-Conservative monarchies? The lower Bourgeois that can't afford to bribe anybody in government? Some of the Petty Bourgeois?

Not exactly a grand showing for your young anarcho-capitalism, I think you'd have to wait until the establishment of social security at least and ideally a point where child labour laws and the 8 hour workday were already basically something taken for granted. Ironically the regulation of capitalism is what allows anarcho-capitalists to delude themselves into thinking anarcho-capitalism would be good.
 
It could be an offshoot of Classical Liberalism, but the problem is that back in the age of 10 year olds pulling 14 hour shifts the only people who could actually believe the upper classes would be better if only you gave them more freedom was the upper classes themselves, and not the members of the First and Second Estates, and not anybody with significant influence in politics which leaves...

Bourgeois living in ultra-Conservative monarchies? The lower Bourgeois that can't afford to bribe anybody in government? Some of the Petty Bourgeois?

Not exactly a grand showing for your young anarcho-capitalism, I think you'd have to wait until the establishment of social security at least and ideally a point where child labour laws and the 8 hour workday were already basically something taken for granted. Ironically the regulation of capitalism is what allows anarcho-capitalists to delude themselves into thinking anarcho-capitalism would be good.

A small group of intellectuals alone can give fair traction to an ideology, nor does a proponent of said ideology need to neccesarily be from a group that would (on face value) benefit from it. Marx himself had servants for instance.

On a side note, as a lefty I do agree that anarcho-capitalism is never going to work =L I just think it having more traction within intellectual spheres would be interesting. Perhaps something more akin to an earlier objectivism would be a more realistic goal however.
 
The only people who will ever believe in anarcho-capitalism are people living in societies so stable that they really cannot even imagine what a world with mass corruption and arbitrary or no law enforcement would be like. The extreme upper class won't support it because they know they need a strong state to protect their wealth, and the lower classes in earlier ages won't support it because they know exactly what arbitrary rule by the powerful is like.

It's a lose-lose for both. The tenant farmer or factory worker doesn't want their landlord or employer to have endless ability to abuse them and turn them into virtual slaves, but the employer really doesn't want the instability that a weak state would bring either.
 
Last edited:
The only people who will ever believe in anarcho-capitalism are people living in societies so stable that they really cannot even imagine what a world with mass corruption and arbitrary or no law enforcement would be like. The extreme upper class won't support it because they know they need a strong state to protect their wealth, and the lower classes in earlier ages won't support it because they know exactly what arbitrary rule by the powerful is like.
As said, not an anarcho capitalist, but couldn't that logic be reversed?

I could see an ideology that talks about such mass corruption and arbitrary law enforcement BECAUSE of governments. It sounds crazy, but we live in a world where plenty of more crazy rationalisations existed and indeed became regimes in themselves.

It also doesn't need such a huge class following to meet the POD, just enough that it is a more common trend. Even just in academia if need be.
 
As said, not an anarcho capitalist, but couldn't that logic be reversed?

I could see an ideology that talks about such mass corruption and arbitrary law enforcement BECAUSE of governments. It sounds crazy, but we live in a world where plenty of more crazy rationalisations existed and indeed became regimes in themselves.

It also doesn't need such a huge class following to meet the POD, just enough that it is a more common trend. Even just in academia if need be.

But people hundreds of years ago would know that the opposite of big government is feudalism. I think you need more of a socialist or police-state to form before anyone above the extreme elites would start advocating for minimal government as a philosophy. And more modern super-elites wouldn't advocate for it because they'd have long since become reliant on government protection and government greasing the wheels for them. Instability, as I said, wouldn't benefit them; they need interconnectivity.
 
It could be an offshoot of Classical Liberalism, but the problem is that back in the age of 10 year olds pulling 14 hour shifts the only people who could actually believe the upper classes would be better if only you gave them more freedom was the upper classes themselves, and not the members of the First and Second Estates, and not anybody with significant influence in politics which leaves...

Radicalism/non-socialist anarchism was very much a thing in the 19th century amongst all classes. Individualist anarchism, for example, drew from the same group of middle/upper class intellectuals as early socialism, while the petite bourgeoisie farmers of the New World and France deeply believed in keeping distant, bureaucratic governments/corporations out of their lives and wallets. And it goes almost without mentioning that the broader labor movement leaned more in the anarchist/left-libertarian direction prior to its domestication in the 20th century, a direction that isn't entirely inconsistent with the kind of things the individualists believed in.

Individualist anarchism really is the place to start here. It was a real thing and it was even something of a serious movement in the middle of the 19th century. You need to find a way to start propelling some of the bigger names in the movement into more serious positions of power.
 
But people hundreds of years ago would know that the opposite of big government is feudalism. I think you need more of a socialist or police-state to form before anyone above the extreme elites would start advocating for minimal government as a philosophy. And more modern super-elites wouldn't advocate for it because they'd have long since become reliant on government protection and government greasing the wheels for them. Instability, as I said, wouldn't benefit them; they need interconnectivity.

This viewpoint is entirely modern. Republicanism as an ideology in the 18th century, when people were actively claiming to be fighting against feudalism, was generally a rather small government ideology. Not necessarily in the same way modern libertarianism is, but the radicals of 1800 would be absolutely shocked by what we think of as radical today. They thought of themselves as fighting against big, over-powerful bureaucratic government by kings. It took over a century before the idea of powerful, bureaucratic government by democratic legislature became widely accepted.
 
Individualist anarchism really is the place to start here. It was a real thing and it was even something of a serious movement in the middle of the 19th century. You need to find a way to start propelling some of the bigger names in the movement into more serious positions of power.


19th Century individualist anarchism was no friend of capital though. Lysander Spooner was a member of the First International and even Stirner, the founder of Egoist Anarchism, argued the egoist should much rather live in a society governed by mutual aid & socialism than a capitalist system because that would be in their self-interest to do so. Add in the fact that most of the anarchist movement in this period was difficult to distinguish in terms of economics from the socialist movement and it's pretty unlikely any kind of early anarcho-capitalism is going to happen.

Historically speaking on the ancap side of things you're going to need the same conditions that inspired von Mises and Murray Rothbard, namely the Russian Revolution and the Keynesian consensus, for an ancap movement to get its intellectual roots planted. Something like a (somehow) successful Paris Commune could do the trick seeing as anarcho-capitalism, in some ways, could be seen as a reactionary form of liberal capitalism.
 
This viewpoint is entirely modern. Republicanism as an ideology in the 18th century, when people were actively claiming to be fighting against feudalism, was generally a rather small government ideology. Not necessarily in the same way modern libertarianism is, but the radicals of 1800 would be absolutely shocked by what we think of as radical today. They thought of themselves as fighting against big, over-powerful bureaucratic government by kings. It took over a century before the idea of powerful, bureaucratic government by democratic legislature became widely accepted.

19th century Republicanism went pretty well hand-in-hand with concepts of The State, though, didn't it? This is where Nationalism and the concept of Nation-States started to come into being. Anarcho-Capitalist rejection of civil society and Rule of Law would have been pretty alien, wouldn't it?
 
19th century Republicanism went pretty well hand-in-hand with concepts of The State, though, didn't it? This is where Nationalism and the concept of Nation-States started to come into being. Anarcho-Capitalist rejection of civil society would have been pretty alien, wouldn't it?

It was more a new conception of what the state was and how it operated than advocating for a bigger state apparatus.

You can't get anarcho-capitalism until you get something to justify arguing for less government involvement in the economy as a good thing. All throughout the 19th century powerful interests in industry and the various states in the industrializing world worked hand in hand towards mutual objectives; as long as that paradigm exists anarcho-capitalism is going to be seen as something spun up by a bunch of out of touch cranks. It was those relationships that were critical to the development of the left anarchist concept of the state and the critique of it and such relationships are the sort that capitalists were totes ok with. It won't make sense to break that chain until you get a situation where there's a state bucking that trend in a big way.
 
It was more a new conception of what the state was and how it operated than advocating for a bigger state apparatus.

You can't get anarcho-capitalism until you get something to justify arguing for less government involvement in the economy as a good thing. All throughout the 19th century powerful interests in industry and the various states in the industrializing world worked hand in hand towards mutual objectives; as long as that paradigm exists anarcho-capitalism is going to be seen as something spun up by a bunch of out of touch cranks. It was those relationships that were critical to the development of the left anarchist concept of the state and the critique of it and such relationships are the sort that capitalists were totes ok with. It won't make sense to break that chain until you get a situation where there's a state bucking that trend in a big way.

Now I'm wondering if Anarcho-Capitalism can come about only as a result of the Cold War. On one side, you have the state giving lip-service to Free Market Capitalism, on the other, you have Communism, which is what Anarcho-Capitalism arises in reaction to.

Maybe it just plain can't arise before the 20th century, because it needs both free market Capitalism and Communism to arise as ideologies first.
 
It was more a new conception of what the state was and how it operated than advocating for a bigger state apparatus.

You can't get anarcho-capitalism until you get something to justify arguing for less government involvement in the economy as a good thing. All throughout the 19th century powerful interests in industry and the various states in the industrializing world worked hand in hand towards mutual objectives; as long as that paradigm exists anarcho-capitalism is going to be seen as something spun up by a bunch of out of touch cranks. It was those relationships that were critical to the development of the left anarchist concept of the state and the critique of it and such relationships are the sort that capitalists were totes ok with. It won't make sense to break that chain until you get a situation where there's a state bucking that trend in a big way.

The thing is, you had people like this already IOTL. The Northern wing of the Jacksonian Democrats certainly had the tendency, if not the extremism necessary to go for something like outright anarcho-capitalism. It's rough, to say the least, but it's possible to imagine a TL where the Whigs get their 3rd Bank in the 1840's and submerge within their party, as much as possible, the slavery issue, while buying and influencing elections on an increasing scale.

The Northern Jacksonian struggle with the 'Money Power' continues, instead of slowly dieing out in favor of a struggle against the slave power. Northern Democrats start to see the two sets of elites as cooperating against what they percieve as their 'interests' and the ideologues of the era, like Leggett or Spooner, take their already radical liberal positions one step further and start to invent a doctrine of some kind of competitive government.

It needs to be emphasized that this sort of thing really did already exist in the 19th century and it wasn't 100% an entirely fringe position. It was, to some degree, under-formed and in its infancy, but smaller central government at least has a very long back-story amongst radical democratic/republican movements in the 17th and 18th centuries and smaller government overall started to grow as an ideology in the 19th century. It ultimately lost the fight against nationalist liberalism (or a kind of liberal conservatism in many places), but that's not a necessary outcome. In the US, especially, it was because the radical liberals found it necessary to ally with the nationalist liberals against the planters in the South that the nationalists ultimately won. In most other places the kind of people who would have radical beliefs didn't usually have access to the franchise.
 
Now I'm wondering if Anarcho-Capitalism can come about only as a result of the Cold War. On one side, you have the state giving lip-service to Free Market Capitalism, on the other, you have Communism, which is what Anarcho-Capitalism arises in reaction to.

Maybe it just plain can't arise before the 20th century, because it needs both free market Capitalism and Communism to arise as ideologies first.

It needs something to justify eliminating state involvement in the economy. That requires a state whose economic system is explicitly anti-capitalist in word if not in deed. You don't need the Cold War but you do need some kind of major anti-capitalist revolutionary state following the rise of industrial capitalism in a power with sufficient resources and clout for that to be a serious shock. The Paris Commune succeeding (a major longshot), a successful Spartacist Revolt in Germany, the OTL Russian Revolution, something along the lines of Jello's Reds! or Bayonets Can't Cut Coal, or even the Biennio Rosso culminating in a revolution could do the trick.

The pre-existing dynamic before the Russian Revolution and the Keynesian consensus forged by the Great Depression was one where state and capital actively worked hand in hand in degrees varying from the United States (somewhat hands off with the state working to protect private property, tariffs, and military interventions in the 1900s and teens) to Japan (with the zaibatsu system, direct alliances between the genro, military, and industrial corporations, and clear focus on perceived national interest over private interest). Keynsian economics becoming widely accepted solution to the market's excesses following the Russian Revolution changed that dynamic considerably and put segments of capital at odds with the state in a fashion that didn't exist prior. Because of this it simply doesn't make sense for advocates of capital to attack the state until the state becomes seen as the main threat to capital.

Ayn Rand's life really sums it up perfectly: if the October Revolution had never happened she probably would have lived and died in relative obscurity in Petrograd. Her entire philosophy, writing, and experience was forged by the fact that she was in the USSR during and after the revolution before coming to the US during the Roaring 20s. It's really no accident, when you look at the relationship dynamics, the anarcho-capitalists and right-wing libertarians hold up the 20s as some kind of halcyon Golden Age seeing as it was the last time they were in an arrangement where the state was their ally, not a potential/perceived adversary.
 
It needs something to justify eliminating state involvement in the economy. That requires a state whose economic system is explicitly anti-capitalist in word if not in deed. You don't need the Cold War but you do need some kind of major anti-capitalist revolutionary state following the rise of industrial capitalism in a power with sufficient resources and clout for that to be a serious shock. The Paris Commune succeeding (a major longshot), a successful Spartacist Revolt in Germany, the OTL Russian Revolution, something along the lines of Jello's Reds! or Bayonets Can't Cut Coal, or even the Biennio Rosso culminating in a revolution could do the trick.

The pre-existing dynamic before the Russian Revolution and the Keynesian consensus forged by the Great Depression was one where state and capital actively worked hand in hand in degrees varying from the United States (somewhat hands off with the state working to protect private property, tariffs, and military interventions in the 1900s and teens) to Japan (with the zaibatsu system, direct alliances between the genro, military, and industrial corporations, and clear focus on perceived national interest over private interest). Keynsian economics becoming widely accepted solution to the market's excesses following the Russian Revolution changed that dynamic considerably and put segments of capital at odds with the state in a fashion that didn't exist prior. Because of this it simply doesn't make sense for advocates of capital to attack the state until the state becomes seen as the main threat to capital.

Ayn Rand's life really sums it up perfectly: if the October Revolution had never happened she probably would have lived and died in relative obscurity in Petrograd. Her entire philosophy, writing, and experience was forged by the fact that she was in the USSR during and after the revolution before coming to the US during the Roaring 20s. It's really no accident, when you look at the relationship dynamics, the anarcho-capitalists and right-wing libertarians hold up the 20s as some kind of halcyon Golden Age seeing as it was the last time they were in an arrangement where the state was their ally, not a potential/perceived adversary.

Unfortunately, this is the pre-1900 forum, so talking about the 1920's and the Russian Revolution as prospective PoDs is off-topic.
 
The Northern Jacksonian struggle with the 'Money Power' continues, instead of slowly dieing out in favor of a struggle against the slave power. Northern Democrats start to see the two sets of elites as cooperating against what they percieve as their 'interests' and the ideologues of the era, like Leggett or Spooner, take their already radical liberal positions one step further and start to invent a doctrine of some kind of competitive government.

Except the kind of economic relationships they were advocating were not remotely like what you see in the case of anarcho-capitalism as we know it. The idea of competition went hand in hand with other ones like worker democracy (advocated by among other people John Stewart Mill and the Owenites) and cooperative ownership (co-operatives sprung up all over the US from the 1830s all the way up to the 1880s ranging from utopian communes to more practical agricultural organizations). They were talking, like later socialist anarchists like Bakunin, about liberation from all forms of oppression and not just from politically-empowered tyrants. There was an understanding and emphasis on collective good in the philosophy, just not one that was handled via the mediation of the state.

This is very different from anarcho-capitalism. All anarcho-capitalism wants is the abolishing, or at least severe limiting, of the state and allowing market forces to dictate all other social relations. Anarcho-capitalism sees no problem with wealth inequality, corporate ownership, and private profit at the expense of all other goals. The only thing that needs liberating here is profit from the power of the state, not people from the whims of the powerful. Collective good in anarcho-capitalism, as we know it OTL, is defined purely in terms of rational self-interest and in practice the ancap system is probably better described as economic feudalism. You aren't going to get people like Murray Rothbard, who said Franco's fascist victory in Spain and subsequent White Terror was excusable because he was killing communists in spite of fascism being one of the most statist ideologies in existence, springing up from the Owenite movement, Spooner, or other individuals or tendencies like that. It's just not there; to get something we'd recognize as anarcho-capitalism it needs to happen during or after the Second Industrial Revolution and in the age of Morgan, zaibatsus, and Krupp.
 
Unfortunately, this is the pre-1900 forum, so talking about the 1920's and the Russian Revolution as prospective PoDs is off-topic.

Which is my point.

You need a change in how economic relations work to get anarcho-capitalism as we know it.

The only pre-1900 PoD I can think of would be a successful Paris Commune but that would be a major longshot and difficult to pull off plausibly. Every other possible PoD to get the anticapitalist revolution you need isn't going to happen before 1900 because the conditions and most of the necessary movements aren't in the right places to make it possible in a place significant enough in the capitalist world to matter.
 
Except the kind of economic relationships they were advocating were not remotely like what you see in the case of anarcho-capitalism as we know it. The idea of competition went hand in hand with other ones like worker democracy (advocated by among other people John Stewart Mill and the Owenites) and cooperative ownership (co-operatives sprung up all over the US from the 1830s all the way up to the 1880s ranging from utopian communes to more practical agricultural organizations). They were talking, like later socialist anarchists like Bakunin, about liberation from all forms of oppression and not just from politically-empowered tyrants. There was an understanding and emphasis on collective good in the philosophy, just not one that was handled via the mediation of the state.

Many of the more famous individualist anarchists were Owenites. They learned from the failures of the Owenite communities, especially New Harmony, and reimagined their ideology to take into account the lessons they picked up.

Even for the ones that weren't involved there, laissez-faire was in the air as an ideology, and not just one of the powerful. Benthamites were the intellectual heavy-weights of the pre-Spring of Nations Western World. The main difference between, say, Leggett and a modern anarcho-capitalist is that Leggett still believed, to some extent, in the monopoly of force that defines modern states. And this guy was the public voice of Jacksonianism in New York City.

The great, the rich, the powerful, those people that you're saying generate a reaction? They already existed in many places in the Northern United States in the 1830's and 40's. Their society goes right back to the Revolution. And in this time? They were National Republicans/Whigs. That's why the Democrats could be so successful in a North that was, at best, apathetic about slavery: The planters cast themselves as the champion of the average American against the overweening Money Power. The Bank War gave Andrew Jackson, already the most popular man in the country, a kind of frenzied popular support that you only get today for an FDR or a Reagan.

The Northern Democrats of the time? They bought into the idea that the state was why the Money Power had so much power over regular people. The tariffs, the corrupt use of public funds for canals and railroads, the over all financial system (including the publicly chartered banks, up to and including the Bank of the United States), that was what the average joe on the streets of New York, Philadelphia, and Boston didn't like. They had no problem with the idea of private property -- most could remember a time as recently as last the generation when their family lived as small-holding farmers or as artisans, those with family history as factory or dock workers or as sailors remembered when their labor was in such high demand that they could get virtually any price they asked for it. They had no problem with trade, both inside the country and with the wider world.

It was the people going off to live in communes, the utopian socialists, who were the fringe movement of well-off middle- and upper-class young adults. Even then a lot of them converted over time, as the utopian communes collapsed and they found the religious communes distasteful. It was only in the late 19th century, after the nationalists had won pretty much everywhere, that the radicals were marginalized and began drifting into the socialist camp to try to find any relevance whatsoever. Even then they survived as an ideological tendency (Tucker, Meulen, fr. ex.).

This is ripe pickings for PoDs for what the OP is asking for.

This is very different from anarcho-capitalism. All anarcho-capitalism wants is the abolishing, or at least severe limiting, of the state and allowing market forces to dictate all other social relations. Anarcho-capitalism sees no problem with wealth inequality, corporate ownership, and private profit at the expense of all other goals. The only thing that needs liberating here is profit from the power of the state, not people from the whims of the powerful. Collective good in anarcho-capitalism, as we know it OTL, is defined purely in terms of rational self-interest and in practice the ancap system is probably better described as economic feudalism. You aren't going to get people like Murray Rothbard, who said Franco's fascist victory in Spain and subsequent White Terror was excusable because he was killing communists in spite of fascism being one of the most statist ideologies in existence, springing up from the Owenite movement, Spooner, or other individuals or tendencies like that. It's just not there; to get something we'd recognize as anarcho-capitalism it needs to happen during or after the Second Industrial Revolution and in the age of Morgan, zaibatsus, and Krupp.

You see, this is the real problem. You're smuggling in an intense dislike of modern anarcho-capitalists, throwing around the deepest ideological aspersions you can think of because you've built your own political beliefs around just how wrong these people are. I'm not going to tell you that your political beliefs are wrong, this isn't the place for that, but the sociology you've built them on, in part, is wrong.

You don't need to go to the 20th century to find people enamored of laissez-faire, you've got it right there, with the Jeffersonians and the Jacksonians and the radical liberals the world over. Most of them weren't extremists, of course not, most of them were OK with this or that intervention because they thought it was beneficial to them, but this is still the breeding ground you need to be searching through to find what the OP is looking for. Push more people toward the extreme one way or another and this challenge is perfectly completable.

EDIT: And, of course, what you're talking about essentially did exist already, the essence of 'fuck you got mine' is there in Stirner and the Egoists. They only really had any influence in the US, however, after the Civil War.
 
Last edited:
As said, not an anarcho capitalist, but couldn't that logic be reversed?

I could see an ideology that talks about such mass corruption and arbitrary law enforcement BECAUSE of governments. It sounds crazy, but we live in a world where plenty of more crazy rationalisations existed and indeed became regimes in themselves.

It also doesn't need such a huge class following to meet the POD, just enough that it is a more common trend. Even just in academia if need be.

Reversing the logic of anarcho capitalism to refer to the corruption and arbitrary nature of the state sounds like it would just result in the same Collectivist Anarchism that most Anarcho-Capitalists specifically define themselves against. Most anyone who thinks seriously about it would notice that it's a logical contradiction to fight against the state for capitalism.
 
Just how radical of an AnCap are we talking here? If there is some (at least nominally) unaffiliated policing body that protects claims to private property, you're probably gonna be able to have some traction wherever Classical Liberalism has taken root; it's basically just the logical extreme of Libertarianism. If there is absolutely no state but economic entities, then yeah, it pretty much is, as others have said, a form of feudalism. Not that it'd be necessarily evil mind you, the corporate entities could potentially care for its employees and clients, but to people of the period it'd just be a relapse into the arbitrary rule they'd try to escape through constitutionalism.

But I mean it's sort of the same problem as all Anarchist movements, how can you keep oppressive structures from forming.
 
Top