AHC: A More Anglicized, US-Analogue Mexico?

I'll just get straight to the point; in the alternate history of For Want of a Nail, Mexico becomes a safe haven for Patriots, republicans and other anti-Monarchists after the American Revolution fails, essentially co-opting the place of OTL's USA. The thing is, a Mexico like that of OTL wouldn't really be anything like the USA in terms of culture or language. For that to happen, there needs to be a POD well before the Revolutionary period.

With that in mind, how would one go about creating a more "Americanise-able" Mexico? That is, widespread use of the English language, an interest in Enlightenment-era republican philosophy by the 18th. Century and demographics more closely resembling that of the USA? The following stipulations are in effect;

1) The POD can be any point before the Seven Year's War. I know it'll probably be difficult to make this happen, since going too far back makes a recognizable AH tougher and tougher to make work, but not going back far enough results in an insufficiently changed Mexico.

2) While immigration from the 13 Colonies and Europe should probably still happen to the same extent & for the same reasons as OTL, there's no denying that Mexico was far more populated than the area the 13 Colonies sprung up around. Therefore, a large percentage of natives, mestizos and other mixed-ethnicities can still happen (although a "Eduardo Rodriguez" in OTL would be "Edward Rogers" here), given the larger Native population.

3) It doesn't have to be called Mexico necessarily, just that the territory it makes up until roughly 1900 has to be part of this alternate-USA.

4) Spanish doesn't have to be done away as a living language, but English must AT LEAST be co-equal with it in the timeframe discussed.

5) The alt-Mexico must break away from Britain, and be a stable republic. The reasons for breaking away don't have to be the same as OTL, however.

So what's the consensus, ASB? Plausible but not likely, or doable?
 
I'll just get straight to the point; in the alternate history of For Want of a Nail, Mexico becomes a safe haven for Patriots, republicans and other anti-Monarchists after the American Revolution fails, essentially co-opting the place of OTL's USA. The thing is, a Mexico like that of OTL wouldn't really be anything like the USA in terms of culture or language. For that to happen, there needs to be a POD well before the Revolutionary period.

With that in mind, how would one go about creating a more "Americanise-able" Mexico? That is, widespread use of the English language, an interest in Enlightenment-era republican philosophy by the 18th. Century and demographics more closely resembling that of the USA? The following stipulations are in effect;

1) The POD can be any point before the Seven Year's War. I know it'll probably be difficult to make this happen, since going too far back makes a recognizable AH tougher and tougher to make work, but not going back far enough results in an insufficiently changed Mexico.

2) While immigration from the 13 Colonies and Europe should probably still happen to the same extent & for the same reasons as OTL, there's no denying that Mexico was far more populated than the area the 13 Colonies sprung up around. Therefore, a large percentage of natives, mestizos and other mixed-ethnicities can still happen (although a "Eduardo Rodriguez" in OTL would be "Edward Rogers" here), given the larger Native population.

3) It doesn't have to be called Mexico necessarily, just that the territory it makes up until roughly 1900 has to be part of this alternate-USA.

4) Spanish doesn't have to be done away as a living language, but English must AT LEAST be co-equal with it in the timeframe discussed.

5) The alt-Mexico must break away from Britain, and be a stable republic. The reasons for breaking away don't have to be the same as OTL, however.

So what's the consensus, ASB? Plausible but not likely, or doable?

I think it's doable, but you will need to clarify what you mean in condition #5. ;)
 
I think it's doable, but you will need to clarify what you mean in condition #5. ;)

Apologies for the ambiguity; what I mean is that it has to be the following:

1) A republic, with a president (the title can be different, but the same thing in practice) at its helm, three branches of government and a well-written Constitution

2) Established as an independent nation no later than, say, 1820

3) NOT a Dominion, Commonwealth or Dependency of Britain. They can eventually play nice later on, but they can't be chained to the Mother Country the way Canada or Australia have been.

4) In the event the 13 Colonies are still established, let's assume they lose the revolt and alt-Mexico becomes a place of refuge for all the anti-British/Colonial folks (Jefferson, Madison, etc.), in the same way Canada became a refuge for Loyalists after the War IOTL.

Does that clear things up any?
 
How's this:

A much longer and fiercer 7 Year's War results in Britain capturing much of the Spanish Main. Fighting mostly occurs in major coastal cities, resulting in a trend of de-urbanization when everyone who can get out moves to rural areas and the frontier. Retreating Spanish forces practice a scorched earth policy, further destabilizing Mexican society and lowering the urban population.

Britain wins the war, barely, and forces Spain to open up its Caribbean and Mesoamerican colonies to British trade and immigration. Immediately after the war, a few important businessmen and aristocrats from the 13 Colonies investigate opportunities in places like Veracruz and other Gulf Ports. They bring

The French Revolution happens earlier, so that it is mostly coterminous with the American Revolution. The revolutionary governments cooperate, and form as more radical versions of their OTL selves (picture a longer Reign of Terror, which is echoed in the fledgling USA). Moderate Americans migrate en masse to Florida and Mexico.

The Revolutionary Wars rage longer, more widespread, and harder. Spain experiences its own republican revolt, and devolves into a bloody civil war. Britain vigilantly blockades certain ports to prevent the Spanish monarchy from relocating to the British "Emergency Occupation Protectorates".

France is finally defeated in the 1790s, and both it and Spain collapse into shadows of their former selves. Britain officially controls Louisiana, the Caribbean and Florida, and de facto runs Mexico as a semi-independent protectorate of Spain. Humanistic sentiments are abound after more three decades of war, and this includes a wave of abolitionism. Certain local governments in the Caribbean mandate manumission, and hundreds of progressive landowners do so on individual decisions.

Immigration to the mainland is huge. Florida becomes majority free black, and its republican self-government experiments with further progressiveness, and becomes a haven for freed and escaped slaves from the radical USA, which has adopted a racialist form of of government ruled by plantation aristocrats who seized power after a series of bloody coups and counter-coups. On the other hand, corporate governments in Mexico stamp down on talks of republicanism and racial equality.

A conspiracy to incite a slave rebellion in Georgia is discovered among important Floridian politicians and aristocrats. The US invades Florida in the 1810s, and begins war with Britain. After a successful invasion of Canada and Florida, as well as devastating raids on British Habana, the US annexes Florida and Louisiana. Re-captured slaves are taken to New Orleans, where thousands are bought by the East India Company-analogues that rule Mexico, and put to work in mines and in the textile industry. Ironically, black politicians and white advocates of abolition also move to Mexico to escape the British crackdown on progressive movements in the Caribbean (a strategy taken to avoid another costly conflict with the USA).

By the 1830s, English is Mexico's lingua franca between various Indian tongues and the holdouts of the Spanish aristocracy, many of whom have adopted English in their own households. Politics and exploration are represented by English as well, and most frontier towns in Texas and California speak English exclusively.

To the north, the USA is softening up, much to the chagrin of enthusiasts of the Manifest Destiny, who are suddenly not being supported by warlike anti-Indian militias. The Plains Tribes, and the lack of a concerted military response to their raids, hinders settlement of the high plains. The westward tide of humanity is funneled into Texas and spills into the Rio Grande valley. Chihuahua is Anglicized to Shawer, Juarez to Howers, among others.

It's 1850, and Britain has bitten off more than it can chew somewhere in Germany or the Balkans, and demands levies from the Protectorate of Mexico (which hasn't been claimed by Spain for years). The local governments mostly refuse, and form a Congress inspired by Virginian traditions of representative government to organize their position. After a terse diplomatic negotiation, Britain cedes Mexico's independence. Not long after, the Caribbean also lobbies for independence, and immediately joins Mexico when granted it.

Mexico (now known as the Republic of the Caribbean) is not out of the hole yet, but its future looks bright. Confrontations between English and Spanish speakers are still common, and Indian nationalism is on the rise. The chaotic independence wars in neighboring Central and South America looms on the horizon, as do relationships with the USA.
 
Very nice, almost exactly what I was looking for! A couple questions;

1) Would this make Spanish a language to be found mostly on the Pacific Coast and in the central hinterlands? Or would it still have a presence in the capital (I assume it would be where Mexico City is IOTL) as a co-official language?

2) Ethnically speaking, it sounds to me like it'd be considerably more varied than the USA, thanks to the Great Terror-style government and Washington-approved racism. On top of that, there's the Caribbean element as well (very nice touch by the way)

3) If I'm reading you right, Canada is taken over by the USA. Assuming this is even possible (that longer Seven Year's War must've REALLY taken it out of the UK), what's to prevent Britain from holding onto *Mexico for dear life? Are they really that battered by that point?

4) Culturally, would you say the citizens of the Caribbean Republic would be leaning more toward Mexican, island, Southern US or general US attitudes and features?
 
Very nice, almost exactly what I was looking for! A couple questions;

1) Would this make Spanish a language to be found mostly on the Pacific Coast and in the central hinterlands? Or would it still have a presence in the capital (I assume it would be where Mexico City is IOTL) as a co-official language?

2) Ethnically speaking, it sounds to me like it'd be considerably more varied than the USA, thanks to the Great Terror-style government and Washington-approved racism. On top of that, there's the Caribbean element as well (very nice touch by the way)

3) If I'm reading you right, Canada is taken over by the USA. Assuming this is even possible (that longer Seven Year's War must've REALLY taken it out of the UK), what's to prevent Britain from holding onto *Mexico for dear life? Are they really that battered by that point?

4) Culturally, would you say the citizens of the Caribbean Republic would be leaning more toward Mexican, island, Southern US or general US attitudes and features?

1: I was envisioning Spanish as a prestige language among the old landowning class, similar to the situation in New Mexico. In addition, communities too poor or isolated to be part of the wider Mexican political scene and trading network would have less contact with English, and would either revert to their pre-Colombian languages, or develop creole-Spanish. This would mainly happen in the central hinterlands, as the frontier is being settled by Anglophones, and most coastal cities have vibrant and important Anglophonic populations.

2) I was envisioning most of the Anglophone population being of Caribbean or African-American descent. White American moderates from the alt-ARW would represent a politically powerful group.

3) I didn't mean for the US to keep Canada; its goals were Florida and westward expansion, so going home with Louisiana was a major victory. Canada was more of a bargaining chip to that end.

4) It's going to be a rather schizophrenic blend for a few decades. There is a powerful land-owning class in both Mexico and most of the Caribbean that will never quite go away, which isn't quite as plutocratic as OTL Mexico, but stronger that the OTL Southern aristocrats. Land reform is always going to be a major political issue. Religion would be a pretty interesting blend of the Caribbean interpretation of Protestant religions with Mexican spins on Catholicism.
 
1: I was envisioning Spanish as a prestige language among the old landowning class, similar to the situation in New Mexico. In addition, communities too poor or isolated to be part of the wider Mexican political scene and trading network would have less contact with English, and would either revert to their pre-Colombian languages, or develop creole-Spanish. This would mainly happen in the central hinterlands, as the frontier is being settled by Anglophones, and most coastal cities have vibrant and important Anglophonic populations.

In other words, Spanish would have a status similar to that of Louisiana Creole or Pennsylvania Dutch of OTL, in addition to the prestige tradition you mentioned? Also, do you think there'd be reservations put in place for non-Anglicized/Hispanized natives, or would they be left to their own devices as in OTL's Mexico?

2) I was envisioning most of the Anglophone population being of Caribbean or African-American descent. White American moderates from the alt-ARW would represent a politically powerful group.

Fair enough, and I mostly concur. However, I'd also insist a rather large number of Appalachian Americans would move down into the highlands and temperate zones as well*; as you say, the US government is ruled by the planter baron class for a good chunk of its history, which IMHO will be politically repellent to many mountain folk, who historically didn't get on with the planters (whilst alt-Mexico might offer similar work opportunities without the "Tuckahoes" treating them like second-class citizens). Furthermore, I'd expect to see a fair number of German immigrants as well, mostly settling in the northern states like Shawer or Howers (as opposed to ones in the south like *Chiapas or *Guerrero), and there's historical precedent for that settlement in OTL Texas.

Still, the total number of whites IMHO wouldn't exceed being a plurality (30-45% tops) in the national average, with blacks, mestizos and other ethnic groups making up the majority remainder.

*People forget that Mexico isn't all desert or jungle, there's regular snowfalls in swathes of the Sierra Madre range for example; the national climate isn't as harsh as people like to say it is.

3) I didn't mean for the US to keep Canada; its goals were Florida and westward expansion, so going home with Louisiana was a major victory. Canada was more of a bargaining chip to that end.

Roger, so Canada's history shouldn't be affected too much (other than being basically held hostage in exchange for Louisiana, I mean)?

4) It's going to be a rather schizophrenic blend for a few decades. There is a powerful land-owning class in both Mexico and most of the Caribbean that will never quite go away, which isn't quite as plutocratic as OTL Mexico, but stronger that the OTL Southern aristocrats. Land reform is always going to be a major political issue. Religion would be a pretty interesting blend of the Caribbean interpretation of Protestant religions with Mexican spins on Catholicism.

Ah, the political issues, very interesting. Land reform it seems would be an especially hermetic issue in the island states, as well as on the mainland (trying to take on the Criollo encomenderos, for example). However, what of the cuisine of the Caribbean Republic (*tries to imagine a Caribbean/Mexican/American-Frontier/etc. mixup...*)? Or the dialect(s) of English spoken throughout the country? Also, how would its military and industrial bases be set up? A couple of my theories, comment if you'd like;

-I think, like IOTL, you'd see a mix of different cuisines. However, the Mexican food most people think of probably wouldn't be found outside of Spanish pockets (likely in places like Jalisco or the Baja peninsula). The logical place for Anglo-Caribbeans to congregate would be along the Gulf Coast and Northern states (Chihuahua/Shawer, Veracruz/Vercross, Tamaulipas/Tamoleape, Campeche/Campeach, etc.), which would likely see heavy gastronomic influences from the Caribbean/Florida and the US respectively.

-English would be mostly Americanized (they'd be the heaviest demographic bloc), with a TON of Caribbean influence. How that Caribbean influence itself would be described varies, as English isn't spoken in *Cuba for example; those islands in turn, being largely Hispanophone IOTL, might use English close to that of a mix between Jamaican and Tidewater English (as the kind of English speakers resettling the islands would likely come from places within the Triangle Trade area). Throw in a healthy amount of Southern US English (settlers coming from across the Rio Grande), plus the dialects of the abolitionists/refugees from the Great Terror, and whatever the Europeans would sound like, and you'd have quite the linguistic menagerie.

-I honestly don't think a huge centralized army would come into play right away without an existential threat to ward off. With that in mind, I'd expect the military to be based around a nucleus of citizen militia (a la the Texas Rangers, or more precisely the Afrikaner Commandos) in the settler-heavy states, whilst the "established' locations and cities would base its organization and tradition on "Company troops" and contract soldiers like OTL's EIC. The navy IMO would mostly be there for protection of merchantmen, securing the coastline and links to the islands, and maybe project power in the Caribbean and Gulf (practically their backyard, anyway). I honestly don't see a huge difference in the economy outside of way better infrastructure and maybe slightly heavier emphasis on crops (mostly corn or sugarcane).
 
Last edited:
Total ASB. You need to explain how Britain manages to do this. With what troops? A longer, fiercer war is one Britain probably loses, given that her only continental ally, Prussia, was saved at the last moment by the Miracle of the House of Brandenburg. With Prussia out of the war, Hanover is lost. King George would do a heck of a lot, and trade a heck of a lot of useless spanish land to get her back.

EDIT: Furthermore, why is Britain even attacking the Spanish main en masse, with huge armies, given that there are about 100 more important uses for those troops.

Indeed. What we need is an earlier catastrophic POD for Spain AND make Mexico go to Britain willingly(still borderline ASB).
 
America wins the Revolution, but collapses during the War of 1812. Many Americans flee to Mexico rather than become British and create their own settlements in the northwest, similar to OTL Texas, and so Anglicize Mexico. During the Mexican War of Independence, the Americans agree to help if Mexico is based on the former USA. The United States of Mexico becomes a major power in North America and acts as a counterweight to British Canada/America. That's how I would see it working. Granted, it doesn't break off from the British, but I'd say it's close enough
 
That's sort of my original idea, Superman; unfortunately I think it still may be ASB based on just how many Americans would need to move there to dent/transform the cultural landscape of Mexico to the OP's extent.

The more and more I think of it, it may be ASB indeed (I haven't totally ruled it out, but I do recognise it's a long shot). Now, could it be done with Argentina/River Plate region with an early enough POD?
 
That's sort of my original idea, Superman; unfortunately I think it still may be ASB based on just how many Americans would need to move there to dent/transform the cultural landscape of Mexico to the OP's extent.

The more and more I think of it, it may be ASB indeed (I haven't totally ruled it out, but I do recognise it's a long shot). Now, could it be done with Argentina/River Plate region with an early enough POD?
Or maybe Britain gets Louisiana and the northwestern parts of New Spain during the French and Indian Wars, and doesn't tax America as much, so no Revolutionary War. The Spanish, having lost so much land, tax the Mexicans more, so they break off and become independent. Same cause as OTL America, but different reasons.
 
Top