AHC: A Larger Middle Eastern Front In World War II

hipper

Banned
a
d) I think a Malta seizure is far more likely than anyone cares to admit, same with El Alamein, so I'll give you that. Ways to accomplish this: a surprise amphibious landing using the RM and some Bersaglieri units trained in amphibious warfare. This is indeed quite possible. The defense of Malta in June 1940 was pathetic, and the Royal Navy would not be able to save it in time had Mussolini done a surprise attack. The presence of the RAF in the region, at the height of the France campaign, was minimal. As for El Alamein, one way to bring it about is to increase the port capacity in Libya before the war for quite a while. This would not really trigger any alarms for the British, but really, Malta was not the thing that made the Army in Africa so ill supplied; it was the poor Libyan port capacity. Increase this, and the German/Italian forces do far better and in my view, likely reach the Suez. It is also very possible that the initial Italian attack in 1940 steamrolls the Western Desert Corps had it been done by anyone more competent than Graziani, who was truly a moronic figure.
.

This is quite a common misconception

In June 1940 the only way to take Malta was with a parachute / air landing Division already established on Sicily before the outbreak of war. it would have to be backed up with and airforce more efficient and with better aircraft available to the Italians in June 1940

such a force did not exist until mid 1942. although a decision to deploy the forces used in Crete could have been taken in May 1941

a surprise declaration of war followed by a seaborne Invasion would be Impractical because of the huge imbalance of forces in June Italy had 2 refurbished BBs available the French Navy alone more than capable of destroying any seaborne invasion (they were quite active against Italy until the armistice)

The only possible spot to invade the islands by sea were at the other end of the island from Valetta marching troops would not get to the capital before the allied navies destroyed their sources of supply and transformed them into the besieged rather than the besiegers.

I also point out that the RN had a 15" monitor parked in Valetta harbour on the Italian declaration of war. which would nullify any Italian bombardment and direct assault.

regards

Hipper
 
This is quite a common misconception

In June 1940 the only way to take Malta was with a parachute / air landing Division already established on Sicily before the outbreak of war. it would have to be backed up with and airforce more efficient and with better aircraft available to the Italians in June 1940

such a force did not exist until mid 1942. although a decision to deploy the forces used in Crete could have been taken in May 1941

a surprise declaration of war followed by a seaborne Invasion would be Impractical because of the huge imbalance of forces in June Italy had 2 refurbished BBs available the French Navy alone more than capable of destroying any seaborne invasion (they were quite active against Italy until the armistice)

The only possible spot to invade the islands by sea were at the other end of the island from Valetta marching troops would not get to the capital before the allied navies destroyed their sources of supply and transformed them into the besieged rather than the besiegers.

I also point out that the RN had a 15" monitor parked in Valetta harbour on the Italian declaration of war. which would nullify any Italian bombardment and direct assault.

regards

Hipper
Thanks Hipper, but the day a 15" gun monitor (HMS Terror) turns the tide of WW2 is the day the Axis should throw in the towel! If a combined German and Italian force can't take down Malta in mid to late 1940 then they should not entertain dreams of invading Britain or the USSR. In the summer of 1940 Malta was weakly defended (per Wikipedia, "thought by Britain ... indefensible"). Sure, both Germany and Italy lacked amphibious assault capabilities. But Germany still had false delusions of being able to land an amphibious force in Great Britain at this time. Britain is out of reach (in my opinion), but Malta should be attainable. Hipper, as per your previous remarks, this assumes that direct German involvement (vs Italy alone) is required in the months after June 1940.

I am new to this site. Sorry if I have broken any rules or if I am off discussion. My interest is in an Axis strategy that exploits a successful North Africa and Middle East campaign. I assume that there is little Middle East oil to be won (or Baku) for Axis powers. How would disruption of the Persian Gulf Lend-Lease supply lines changed the war on the Eastern Front?

Thanks history buffs and armchair generals! Love you all!
Ian
 

hipper

Banned
In Mid to late 1940 the Luftwaffe was engaged in a life and deathstruggle against the French Air Force and the RAF

Effective Luftwaffe participation in the Mediteranian waited until 1941, you would have to Cancel the Battle of Britain.
However thatcould have consequences for the RAF and Fleet air arm In the mediteranian.

only the Italians could take action effective action in the Mediteranian through 1940.
In June/July 1940 they have two battleships with 12.6 " guns.
Malta far from being indefensible, had an extensive Coastal artillery network of 9.2" and 6" guns, which would render coastal bombardment by anything short of battleships problematic. The presence of Terror with two 15" guns would be a sharp challenge to Italian invasion plans. the Italians only have a brief 1 to 2 day window to suppress Malta Before the mediteranian Fleet arrives. terror means that any invasion has to occur on the North East of the Island making a quick invasion impossible.


To have a successful Malta invasion in 1940 you have to have a selection of the below

more organised German / Italian co operation.
A trained parachute Brigade,
An trained amphibious assault Brigade
A stronger Navy
A successful Frogman attack on Alexandria and Gibraltar
Effective Italian Dive bombers


Cheers Hipper
 
In Mid to late 1940 the Luftwaffe was engaged in a life and deathstruggle against the French Air Force and the RAF

Effective Luftwaffe participation in the Mediteranian waited until 1941, you would have to Cancel the Battle of Britain.
However thatcould have consequences for the RAF and Fleet air arm In the mediteranian.

only the Italians could take action effective action in the Mediteranian through 1940.
In June/July 1940 they have two battleships with 12.6 " guns.
Malta far from being indefensible, had an extensive Coastal artillery network of 9.2" and 6" guns, which would render coastal bombardment by anything short of battleships problematic. The presence of Terror with two 15" guns would be a sharp challenge to Italian invasion plans. the Italians only have a brief 1 to 2 day window to suppress Malta Before the mediteranian Fleet arrives. terror means that any invasion has to occur on the North East of the Island making a quick invasion impossible.


To have a successful Malta invasion in 1940 you have to have a selection of the below

more organised German / Italian co operation.
A trained parachute Brigade,
An trained amphibious assault Brigade
A stronger Navy
A successful Frogman attack on Alexandria and Gibraltar
Effective Italian Dive bombers


Cheers Hipper
 
Thank you Hipper! With total respect, and thanks for the facts of the Malta defensive capabilities (I could not find myself). My "what if"

First, cancel the Battle of Britain? Perhaps not a bad idea. The Germans did not know until August 1940 that the Bf 110 fighter was not up to the task of escorting German bombers on long range attacks. This knowledge of the Bf 110 shortcomings should kill any hopes of winning German air superiority over Britain. The Me 109 can't provide escort duties much beyond the London airspace. Thus, Operation Sea Lion is kaput. Battle of Britain is kaput, but they still need to keep up the fight! The RAF bombers are still very active against German targets on the continent.

Back to Egypt. Things are moving very fast in 1940, and minor strategic reactions in 1940 could have made a big impact. I'm not suggesting that the Battle of Britain needs to be cancelled (by Axis forces), but instead that the Axis could have committed more forces to the North Africa region, with little impact to the Battle of Britain. By little I am thinking of a couple ME 109 squads, some Sutkas, one or two armored divisions... and that s it!

As for Malta, many of the points Hipper brings up are very valid. The lack of an amphibious force is a major problem for Axis powers. I can understand why Germany doesn't haven't a Marine Corp, but Italy?

As to Hipper's requirements for a successful 1940 invasion of Malta...(with great respect!)
1. German and Italian cooperation. This is key! The Axis did not coordinate while the Allies got together later in Tehran and worked out a comprehensive strategy.
2. Parachute brigade - The Germans had this, though very beaten up after the Western campaign of spring 1940.
3. Amphibious brigade - No go for Axis powers. Italians gamed for total losses of landing craft. This is the weak point.
4. A stronger navy - On paper the Italian Navy was strong. Germany needs to provide oil to fuel the Italian fleet. Later, in November 1940, Italy had 4 battleships and 7 heavy cruisers when they were struck by aircraft carrier at Taranto, sitting at bay in harbor. Sound familiar?
5. Frogman attack at Alexandria and Gibraltar? ...I don't understand
 
Sorry, My PC flaked out, but it seems my post in progress was saved! So to continue...

6. Germany had dive bombers (stutkas). But this brings up a point about Adam Smith and the specialization of national economic capacity. Italy was not a great industrial power before or during WW2. The three engine SM 79 seems to be something that the Italians made well. It was converted to a torpedo bomber with some success. Germany could use a torpedo bomber, Italy could use a fighter like the ME 109. Make the deal and specialize in what each nation makes well. Italy was too small of an industrial power to go it alone vs. the British Empire.

Regards,
Ian
 
Top