AHC: A Jewish kingdom in the middle ages

You know, there was antijudaism in the Britain too, expulsion of the Jews...

I think you idealise a bit the past of Britain, and confuse with modern days a bit.
 

Yonatan

Banned
I'm thinking the only place that a survivable Jewish kingdom might be possible would be someplace in the British Isles, and if it is going to have a good chance of surviving, we'd basically be talking England.

There is a possibility, albeit small, that this could have happened in much the same manner that Kievan Rus supposedly went Christian.

Let us suppose that, about the year 600 A.D., one of the more powerful of the kings of the pagan Anglo-Saxons...let's say Redwald of East Anglia, for sake of argument...is perhaps a bit more worldly than he was in OTL and is aware of the three Abrahamic religions, and not just of Christianity. He asks for representatives of the Christians, the Muslims, and the Jews to come and make cases for their respective religions.

The Jewish representative regales the King with tales of Joshua and especially David, and makes the case that Judaism is a warrior's religion. He presents circumcision as a blood sacrifice to God...something a pagan Anglo-Saxon would understand and identify with. He also slyly intimates that it could be seen as the mark of a warrior, a man who is not afraid to face his worst fears. Any man so marked, he argues, whether his trade was in warfare or not, was a warrior in the eyes of God.

These things appeal to the King, and instead of converting to Christianity as per OTL, he decides to convert to Judaism. Using the same arguments the Jewish scholar had used, he persuades most of his noblemen over the next few years to follow suit, and under their guidance, the people of East Anglia convert over the next ten years. Furthermore, when Edwin of Deira seeks refuge with him a few years later, Edwin converts to Judaism as well. When King Aethelfrith of Northumbria tries to force Redwald to turn Edwin over to him, Redwald, as per OTL, raises a large army, marches north, defeats and kills Aethelfrith, installing Edwin as King of Northumbria. Edwin proceeds to convert the Northumbrians, with Redwald's help, over the next few years.

Together, Redwald and Edwin attack and subdue the Mercians, the Lindisware, and other Anglo-Saxon and British tribes. Redwald and Edwin, sometimes using the carrot, and other times the stick, begin converting the populations of those regions to Judaism. By the time Redwald dies c. 625, all of England north of the Thames is either Jewish, or in the process of becoming Jewish. In Southern England, Kent is Christian, and Wessex and Sussex remain pagan.

Let's assume that this alternate Redwald has no son, or his sons are killed in the campaigns described above. Let's assume he does have a marriageable daughter, and he gives that daughter to Edwin. When Redwald dies, Edwin becomes King over all of England north of the Thames.

Let's also assume that Jews from all over Europe, at the invitation of Edwin, have come to make their homes in his kingdom. With the help of Jewish scholars, he is able to organize his kingdom better and more efficiently than his rivals to the South. His tax base is managed more efficiently, and he's able to consolidate his rule over the conquered lands, enabling him to further move along the conversion of the population to Judaism.

This stronger Edwin, who has already disposed of the Mercian royal line and added Mercia's power to his own, easily defeats Cadwallon ap Cadfan if that ruler of Gwynedd tries making trouble for him (since his OTL ally, Penda of Mercia, is gone, he probably doesn't do that anyway). Edwin thus lives well beyond the time he died in OTL, finally dying in, let's say, the year 650.

Edwin's eldest son by his East Anglian bride...let's call him Osfrith...inherits a strong, well-organized kingdom whose population is majority Jewish and whose non-Jewish population is rapidly declining as a result of an ongoing program of conversion including taxes levied on non-Jews and various other rewards to those who convert. He finishes what his father and grandfather started, crossing the Thames and defeating the remaining kingdoms there...first Kent, then Sussex, then Wessex. The other kingdoms are unable to band together to oppose Osfrith, and are defeated separately and incorporated into Osfrith's kingdom. By the year 670, all of Britain, from the Firth of Forth to the Isle of Wight, and from the borders of Wales to the English channel, are in the hands of Osfrith. He passes this along to his successors, who continue to consolidate their kingdoms and convert the populations to Judaism. By the year 700, the conversion process is complete, and England is a unified, strong Jewish kingdom.

Ok, umm, WOW.
that is alot of effort right there, and I applaud you for coming up with this. I always wanted to learn more about the saxons...

I have read your timeline "England expects..." and loved it, but I dont know if I can write something like this. I dont know enough about the period or the culture to make it justice.

Now that I think about it, a Jewish kingdom probably makes more sense earlier then the 1200's since christianity will have less of a foot hold.

Would you be interested in helping me make a TL out of this?
 
You know, there was antijudaism in the Britain too, expulsion of the Jews...

I think you idealise a bit the past of Britain, and confuse with modern days a bit.

If you're addressing this to me, the first expulsion of the Jews from England occurred in 1290, some six centuries after my POD, and Jews didn't begin to move to England in any numbers until the 11th century.

It is also a sad fact that in pre-modern times, European "anti-Judaism," as you put it, tended to stem, unfortunately and shamefully, from Christian or Muslim influence. We're talking about a POD in the early 7th century here, however. Almost everyone in the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms at this time is a pagan and probably has never seen or heard of a Jew, as they would have been exceedingly rare on the ground in the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms at that time, nor would they have been much influenced by Christians regarding them.

Certainly if we went much later with a POD it would be impossible. By that time Christianity was too entrenched among the Anglo-Saxons. But in the critical period during the 7th century when Christianity historically triumphed in England, there is a possibility...albeit a small one...that it could have gone a different direction.
 
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Ok, umm, WOW.
that is alot of effort right there, and I applaud you for coming up with this. I always wanted to learn more about the saxons...

I have read your timeline "England expects..." and loved it, but I dont know if I can write something like this. I dont know enough about the period or the culture to make it justice.

Now that I think about it, a Jewish kingdom probably makes more sense earlier then the 1200's since christianity will have less of a foot hold.

Would you be interested in helping me make a TL out of this?

Well, I wouldn't mind helping you in an advisory capacity. I already have several major projects going on right now, so my taking the lead role would be out of the question.
 

Paul MacQ

Donor
Around the year 1000 King Stephen of Hungary could have chosen the Jewish faith instead of having to pick between the Orthodox and Catholic faiths like he was being pushed into. Then receiving a bit of a flood of refugees. And early bankers money.

Some Nordic King getting upset or offended by Christians decides to Pick the Jewish faith. Then lives with the choice. Founding a kingdom that could become a bit of a Banking Empire
 
Around the year 1000 King Stephen of Hungary could have chosen the Jewish faith instead of having to pick between the Orthodox and Catholic faiths like he was being pushed into. Then receiving a bit of a flood of refugees. And early bankers money.

Some Nordic King getting upset or offended by Christians decides to Pick the Jewish faith. Then lives with the choice. Founding a kingdom that could become a bit of a Banking Empire

Too dangerous in both cases maybe, strong christian nations close later on, maybe.
 
Wild card - a greek island? There was places in Byzance days that had a surprising numbers of jews. And later after too.

What about in the later eras, when the empire shrink, then splinter? A puppet state around Corfou maybe, allies at least of the venetians?

If we can include the 1400s-1500s into the Middle Ages, then Thessalonica ?
 

Titus_Pullo

Banned
Your challange, should you choose to accept it, is to find a plausible POD to create a Jewish kingdom, or make an existing kingdom having a Jewish king/strong Jewish nobility, in Europe during the middle ages. specifically, NOT the Khazars or any of the steppe tribes, I mean western Europe.

Is this at all possible, or ASB? the closest I can think of would be somewhere in Spain, but im not too familier with the time period.


The most plausible scenario I can think of is if Mohammed converted to Judaism instead of founding his own. The now converted Jewish Arabs combine their new faith with their zeal for conquest and the Arab conquests still goes on as in otl. Then when the Moors who are converts to Judaism ittl conquer Spain, you have a Jewish kingdom in the Iberian Peninsula.
 

Titus_Pullo

Banned
Is there places in Middle east and beyond where they have fled in mass, and so a somewhat autonomous,s afe area? or such?

There have always been Jewish bedouin tribes in the ME and Mohammed no doubt had dealings with them. The three major Jewish tribes in the ME in the 7th c were, the Banu el nadir, Banu Kurayza and Banu Kaynuqa. Medina had a very large Jewish population and for Mohammed to convert to Judaism would not have been far-fetched. The Jews even helped Mohammed escape when he ran afoul of the pagan priests.
 
There have always been Jewish bedouin tribes in the ME and Mohammed no doubt had dealings with them. The three major Jewish tribes in the ME in the 7th c were, the Banu el nadir, Banu Kurayza and Banu Kaynuqa. Medina had a very large Jewish population and for Mohammed to convert to Judaism would not have been far-fetched. The Jews even helped Mohammed escape when he ran afoul of the pagan priests.

I meaned more in muslim powers days... but okay
 

BlondieBC

Banned
The most plausible scenario I can think of is if Mohammed converted to Judaism instead of founding his own. The now converted Jewish Arabs combine their new faith with their zeal for conquest and the Arab conquests still goes on as in otl. Then when the Moors who are converts to Judaism ittl conquer Spain, you have a Jewish kingdom in the Iberian Peninsula.

Couldn't you just also slightly modify the Koran? Make it clear that Jews are to be tolerated, as long as they don't try to convert people. Sort of a Dual chose people concept. Judaism for the existing Jewish race, and Islam for the rest of the world. It could just be a few sentence saying something like "Allah will greatly punish those who kill Jews, unless they try to convert a Muslim to Judaism"
 
Couldn't you just also slightly modify the Koran? Make it clear that Jews are to be tolerated, as long as they don't try to convert people. Sort of a Dual chose people concept. Judaism for the existing Jewish race, and Islam for the rest of the world. It could just be a few sentence saying something like "Allah will greatly punish those who kill Jews, unless they try to convert a Muslim to Judaism"

It,s OTL.

You will be surprised, but the Kuran said so. The Peoples of the Book, while not quite the same status, ARE to be respected. (Unlike 'Pagan heatens'.) Of course, it's theory, and like Christians and Buddhists and all that, the policy of the lords could go against this.

Look at the Ottoman Millet system.
 

Titus_Pullo

Banned
Couldn't you just also slightly modify the Koran? Make it clear that Jews are to be tolerated, as long as they don't try to convert people. Sort of a Dual chose people concept. Judaism for the existing Jewish race, and Islam for the rest of the world. It could just be a few sentence saying something like "Allah will greatly punish those who kill Jews, unless they try to convert a Muslim to Judaism"


Interesting. But I still go with Mohammed converting to Judaism. He ends up divorcing his wife and marrying the daughter of some Jewish tribal elder. We now have the fate of Jews and Arabs merging as one people. The three major Jewish tribes of Medina then joins Mohammed's early conquests and the entire Arabian peninsula falls to them as in otl this time with Jews on board. Naturally there will be differences and disagreements between the natural born Jews and the newly converted Arabs. We can have this as the beginning of a Sunni/Shi'te type division. With one camp believing that only those descended from natural Jewish blood have the right to become a successor to Muhammed, while the other camp believing that one need not have natural Jewish blood to suceed Muhammed.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
Is there places in Middle east and beyond where they have fled in mass, and so a somewhat autonomous,safe area? or such?

Some part of Kurdistan ?

Yezidis, Assyrian, and Armenian managed to survive in there. In 14th century Yezidis have several big tribes supporting it.

Several hundred thousand kurdish tribesmen convert in Judaism and managed to create small emirate in the mountains.
 
It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to see a Jewish kingdom established in Palestine in the late middle ages, maybe if the Crusades continue for a little longer to the point where fighting over it doesn't seem like that attractive a thought to either the Christians or the Muslims. So a slow re-gathering of Jews in the area results in the proclamation of a kingdom a few centuries later.

In Europe, I'm not seeing that happen without massive changes and a very early POD. If Constantine never converts, then all bets are off.
 
Wild card - a greek island? There was places in Byzance days that had a surprising numbers of jews. And later after too.

What about in the later eras, when the empire shrink, then splinter? A puppet state around Corfou maybe, allies at least of the venetians?

Crete sounds pretty interesting to me. :D

Selim II made Joseph Nasi Duke of Naxos and Count of Andros. In OTL, he was an absentee duke and was childless; an ATL Nasi might take more of an interest in personally ruling his domain and, if he marries differently, might have an heir. This would lead to a Jewish dynasty ruling an autonomous Cycladic duchy, which might eventually become independent (although staying that way might be a non-trivial problem).

If we can include the 1400s-1500s into the Middle Ages, then Thessalonica ?

Is there places in Middle east and beyond where they have fled in mass, and so a somewhat autonomous,s afe area? or such?

Some part of Kurdistan ?

Yezidis, Assyrian, and Armenian managed to survive in there. In 14th century Yezidis have several big tribes supporting it.

Several hundred thousand kurdish tribesmen convert in Judaism and managed to create small emirate in the mountains.

It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to see a Jewish kingdom established in Palestine in the late middle ages, maybe if the Crusades continue for a little longer to the point where fighting over it doesn't seem like that attractive a thought to either the Christians or the Muslims. So a slow re-gathering of Jews in the area results in the proclamation of a kingdom a few centuries later.

The OP specified Western Europe. So these ideas may have merit, but are not on-topic.
 
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