AHC: a German nationalist movement that’s inclusive of Jews?

[fluttersky]

IOTL, German nationalism came about despite Germans being divided between those of the Catholic and Protestant faiths. What I’m wondering is, could they have included more religious differences, i.e. could Ashkenazi Jews have been seen as another branch of the German people? With the concept of Germanness being based primarily on language, and Yiddish being seen as merely a German dialect.

A united Germany in such a timeline might also include the Pale of Settlement thanks to the large number of Jews there.

Is this at all possible?

 

[oshron]

sometime during Imperial Germany would probably be the time to do it, but no ideas on how--iirc, Germany was historically one of the safest places in Europe to a Jew since, up until the Nazis, they didn't really have a history of antisemitic pogroms like they in Russia, for example

 

[piratedude]

Germany was historically one of the safest places in Europe to a Jew since, up until the Nazis, they didn't really have a history of antisemitic pogroms like they in Russia, for example

So we're ignoring the attacks on jewish communities in Germany during the first crusade and during the black death?
Are we also supposed to ignore the repeated strains of anti-semitism that broke out from Martin Luther onwards?

 

[Flashman]

In the same sense that early Arab nationalism was extremely inclusive of Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslim minorities due to a common struggle against colonialism, I could see such a thing developing in a world where most Germans live under a foreign power.

 

[Salvador79]

German nationalism was not quite anti-Semitic up until the 1850s or 1860s when it went to the Right and morphed into illiberal Prussia-fanboyhood.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Perhaps another state (that didn’t participate in the partitions of Poland ideally) uniting Germany would do it- because Jews were so populous in Poland, they could have been more identified as part of the polish population and therefore a subhuman group to be assimilated and Germanised as part of Prussia’s goal of maintaining its subjugation of Poland.

 

[Whiteshore]

Perhaps another state (that didn’t participate in the partitions of Poland ideally) uniting Germany would do it- because Jews were so populous in Poland, they could have been more identified as part of the polish population and therefore a subhuman group to be assimilated and Germanised as part of Prussia’s goal of maintaining its subjugation of Poland.

So a Bavaria-led or Saxony-led unification of Germany?

 

[WotanArgead]

To do this, you have to redo the entire history of German-Jewish relations - in countries with weak anti-Semitism, Jews were integrated into society, and not brought into a separate group.

 

[JackLumber]

Jews were well on there way to integration before WW1 and claiming Prussia to be especially anti Jewish is kind of odd since they had a habit of counting them as Germans in censuses and would use them against the polish within their partition of Poland when it suited them.

 

[Jito]

Have there been any examples of more-or-less successful integration of Jews into the state nationality outside of the US? In the US, Jews basically entered the white nationality when American culture decided them and Irish and Italians and all the other European immigrants they happily kicked around counted as white people when compared to black Americans. Perhaps avoid a World War I, and all the social upheaval associated with it, and allow Germany to develop at a steady rate. As Germany begins to be a destination for slavic, turkish, arab, and african immigrants, German nationalists decide to bring Jews under the umbrella?

Carlton_Bach is writing an excellent timeline where Germany goes to war against Russia in the early twentieth century. The experience of fighting alongside Yiddish speaking Jewish-Polish freedom fighters raises the average German's esteem for the religion. A situation like that could result in the average German Nationalist Liberal viewing Jews as Germans with a different religion, not an outside ethnic group looking in.

 

[Thomas Lloyd]

Plausible. Most of the Jews in Eastern Europe were German, so they can be used as agents of German culture and influence.

 

[Jürgen]

I would go a earlier full emancipation of Jews in the German states. So it doesn’t get connected with French Revolution, we can mix this with Austria and Prussia doing it and this result in a influx of Jews from the Pale of Settlement to their part of Poland. Next I would go with Jews joining the German National Awakening as some of the more important actors. Maybe one of the strongest proponents of Bohemia as German instead of Czech could be a Jewish intellectual. There’s no better way to unite people than creating a common enemy.

 

[Coluber]

So we're ignoring the attacks on jewish communities in Germany during the first crusade and during the black death?
Are we also supposed to ignore the repeated strains of anti-semitism that broke out from Martin Luther onwards?

Is it relevant to the time period in question?

 

[Deleted member 109224]

Imperial Germany contemplated counting Yiddish-Speaking Jews as "German Speakers" when thinking about annexing the Polish Border Strip. There are stories of German Soldiers marching into Russia during WWI being pretty fascinated by how they could understand the Jewish language. Jews in the Russian Empire also were somewhat receptive of the Germans considering how antisemitic the Russians were.

Remember the blessing for the Tsar from Fiddler on the Roof: May God bless and keep the Czar, far away from us!

 

[Walle Ras]

Is it relevant to the time period in question?

Very much so, I was taught by my Rabbi that Luther directly lead to Nazi antisemetism. (No insult against Lutherans that aren't anti semetic.)

 

[Raferty]

Modern German nationalist movements usually try to publicly be inclusive of the Jews. The Bild, for example, a relatively nationalist leaning newspaper, is known for this. There is a "Jews in the AfD" grouping, as well.

This is difficult because German nationalism before 1900 was virulently anti-Slavic and in most cases anti-Jewish. I guess your best hope would be for German nationalists to see Tsarist Russian anti-Semitism as being barbaric, Asiatic behavior and have a more inclusive attitude towards Jews as part of its anti-Slavic nature.

Maybe also you could have Jewish emancipation be a bigger part of the national awakening, with the forces of Catholic reactionary anti-nationalism being pro-ghetto and Jews being seen as part of the struggle for romantic Germanic nationalism. A Jewish or proto-Jewish nationalist leader (think like Disraeli in the UK) would help.

 

[Jürgen]

Very much so, I was taught by my Rabbi that Luther directly lead to Nazi antisemetism. (No insult against Lutherans that aren't anti semetic.)

Yes it was why Lutheran Hitler was such a rampant anti-Semite and we saw Catholic Denmark save most of its Jewish population.

 

[Monter]

Very much so, I was taught by my Rabbi that Luther directly lead to Nazi antisemetism. (No insult against Lutherans that aren't anti semetic.)

The sonderweg isn't a credible theory for the last few decades.

 

[Minchandre]

To do this, you have to redo the entire history of German-Jewish relations - in countries with weak anti-Semitism, Jews were integrated into society, and not brought into a separate group.

Jews actually in Germany tended to be very assimilated. They spoke proper German (and not Yiddish), dressed normally, lived integrated into mainstream society, etc. Their main divergences were a tendency toward in-marriage and, before emancipation, an inability to hold land, take certain professions, etc.

It seems very possible to get German nationalism to include German Jews. Extending it to Yiddish-speaking Jews in former Poland and beyond seems more difficult, but it might be doable if it happens in stages, with each batch becoming assimilated before the next is incorporated.

 

[Histor32]

Very much so, I was taught by my Rabbi that Luther directly lead to Nazi antisemetism. (No insult against Lutherans that aren't anti semetic.)

I'm Lutheran, my family German and Russian and couldn't care anyone's religion.

I agree that there are extremists but I wouldn't say Germany was anti semitic per se before the nazis. More just ambivalent.

WW1 and the aftermath which led to rise of whack jobs.. Kot saying whack jobs or things never happens before in Germany or any other nation against any group on another, but for the most part Germany was a very friendly place for the most part.. Again milage may vary and no explicite warrenty implied.

Jews had up and downs no matter where they were unfortunatly.

I could see a Germany being more receptive, but in the same breath I can see a status quo and or worse due to religious zealots.

All in all though Germany was a safe bet for Jews as was Poland.

Russia wasn't even bad for the most part. Oh yes program's.. Agreed very bad... But pre 1914? Jews were everywhere in ever walk of life in these nations.

The real root to the op would be.. How ro make people and I'm not sure why in history this happened myself.. But make them blend in more. Less bunched together.. Less Yiddish. Don't let other think of them as different.