AHC: a foreign "Gibraltar" on English soil

[Simreeve]

What about Lundy Island?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/gallery/2009/sep/28/lundy-island-40

Edit: Holy Island is another option:

http://jamiecarie.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Holy-Island.jpg

Again, what for? The new owner would have the added cost of garrisoning them, they wouldn't be any significant use as bases in further wars, and a Britain that was still the leading naval power could blockade either or both of of them quite easily: Even if the British didnt just reconquer them directly the next time that a war aaginst their occupiers took place, we'd probably be able to take over somewhere else belonging to those occupiers for which they'd be willing to exchange these scraps at the peace treaty anyway.

Actually, in my opinion, the Isle of Wight is the most interesting possibility out of those that have been listed so far. Although it's larger than any of the other areas mentioned (except perhaps for 'Cornwall', if we're talking about a significant part of that county) and would consequently requrie a larger garrison than any of them -- not only to keep the locals in order, but to protect the coasts against potential British landings -- too, it could support a reasonably-sized garrison better than any of them. Its best anchorage is inside the Solent, which would be threatened by British forts on the mainland, but maybe an artifical harbour [using fairly long breakwaters] could be constructed somewhere in the Sandown-Ventnor section of the south-eastern coast instead...
And heavy guns in the forts on the island that cover either end of the Solent would greatly hinder Britain's use of Portsmouth as a naval base in wartime, possibly pushing base facilities away to Plymouth in the west and Devon (and Chatham, etc) in the east.

 

[Socrates]

Again, what for? The new owner would have the added cost of garrisoning them, they wouldn't be any significant use as bases in further wars, and a Britain that was still the leading naval power could blockade either or both of of them quite easily: Even if the British didnt just reconquer them directly the next time that a war aaginst their occupiers took place, we'd probably be able to take over somewhere else belonging to those occupiers for which they'd be willing to exchange these scraps at the peace treaty anyway.

Britain as the predominant naval power means none of these places work, in the same way that Gibraltar would not work if Spain was the predominant naval power. I'm assuming in this timeline that whoever has the base is stronger than Britain at sea.

Equally, any foreign base would require the cost of garrisoning them. It would certainly be cheaper to garrison Lundy than the Isle of Wight, or Cornwall (!). As for the use, it would be a handy base for resupplying ships in North West Europe. The same reason Minorca or Cyprus were handy for the Brits.

 

[Simreeve]

Equally, any foreign base would require the cost of garrisoning them. It would certainly be cheaper to garrison Lundy than the Isle of Wight, or Cornwall (!). As for the use, it would be a handy base for resupplying ships in North West Europe. The same reason Minorca or Cyprus were handy for the Brits.

So it would have to be somewhere with a decent harbour, which still rules out most of the suggestions made so far.

 

[Socrates]

So it would have to be somewhere with a decent harbour, which still rules out most of the suggestions made so far.

Isn't the harbour at Gibraltar largely artificial? This seems like a reasonable start:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3637/3573356371_218df42c50_o.jpg

 

[Simreeve]

Isn't the harbour at Gibraltar largely artificial? This seems like a reasonable start:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3637/3573356371_218df42c50_o.jpg

Where's that, Lundy? Okay, so it's a start. Whether the island could actually be developed to a comparable extent as Gib, though, is something that I don't know offhand but am inclined to doubt.
Considering Lundy's position, in the Age of Sail any wind that will carry your ships there will probably make getting back around Cornwall and into the Channel a bit tricky.
Also, Gibraltar had a lot of the food for its population shipped across from Morocco but Lundy doesn't have a comparable non-British source relatively near... unless you've "liberated" Ireland (or at least southern Ireland), too, in which case it probably makes more sense to put your naval base somewhere over there instead.

 

[Socrates]

Where's that, Lundy? Okay, so it's a start. Whether the island could actually be developed to a comparable extent as Gib, though, is something that I don't know offhand but am inclined to doubt.
Considering Lundy's position, in the Age of Sail any wind that will carry your ships there will probably make getting back around Cornwall and into the Channel a bit tricky.
Also, Gibraltar had a lot of the food for its population shipped across from Morocco but Lundy doesn't have a comparable non-British source relatively near... unless you've "liberated" Ireland (or at least southern Ireland), too, in which case it probably makes more sense to put your naval base somewhere over there instead.

Yep, it's Lundy. I'm not sure the wind argument is very strong. Bristol was a major port at this time, and people seemed to get in and out just fine. Besides, there's reasonable flexibility to sail out in a northwesterly direction before looping around just south of Ireland. How did Gibraltar cope with people trying to get round Iberia?

The food argument is an interesting one. How hard would it be to supply it from Brittany?

 

[Simreeve]

Yep, it's Lundy. I'm not sure the wind argument is very strong. Bristol was a major port at this time, and people seemed to get in and out just fine. Besides, there's reasonable flexibility to sail out in a northwesterly direction before looping around just south of Ireland. How did Gibraltar cope with people trying to get round Iberia?

The food argument is an interesting one. How hard would it be to supply it from Brittany?

The sailing conditions around Bristol I don't actually know much about, but I know that on the other side of the country ships sometimes had to wait for a week or more before they could get from the Channnel into the Thames (or vice versa) and I was going by that. Maybe the winds are less powerful at Bristol for some reason, or the ships were able to tack more easily in those waters than they could around Dover (which might be a potential problem if tacking brings you into gunnery range from British-held forts on the mainland)... or maybe they simply waited in port for the one day in however many when conditions were suitable and then all sailed out in fairly quick succession, which would be okay for peacetime trade in the manufactured goods that were their main exports but less convenient for warships in warime...

From what I've read, it seems that -- except during the occasional serious storm -- the winds tended to be lighter around Gibraltar's latitude than they were around the British Isles.

Re supply from Brittany: If you've got clear naval superiority over Britain then it's presumably possible, probably even if & when Brittany itself is suffering from food shortages (which happened a time or two since the date of Britain's OTL acquisition of Gibraltar), but the distance and winds make it distinctly less convenient than supplying Gib from Morocco... especially with beef cattle, shipped live for slaughter after arrival, that seem to have been a significant part of the OTL trade.

 

[Lamb]

The issue is not the defendability of the enclave, but rather than economic/strategic/political beneifts of holding it.

I think the only reasonable place would be Dover and its Environs which would allow a fleet operating from it to cut channel trade. This, particularly if combined with control of Calais or Bolougne would be an excellent aquisition to more or less any European power after 1400.

The defence of the Enclave is a secondary problem, linked to keeping England/Britain militarily weak and/or politically divided. Of course it was possible to produce more or less impenetrable or rather impracticable to assault fortifications in the pre industrial era. So if the political will was there to hold onto the Enclave this could be achieved in fairly none ASB ways.

The primary pre-reqs are:

1) destruction or pre-empting of English/British naval power, which seems unlikely post 1705
2) Political Division within the British Isles, (Perhaps a super early united Ireland or an independent Scotland).
3) A near hegemonic control of the Ocean for the occupying power.

The best candidates for this seem to be Spain, or France, but early PODs to produce the above pre-reqs are likely to Butterfly European Early Modern history to the extent that it could be more or less anybody. Either way, totally doable with the right POD around say 1483.

 

[robbiej]

What about the Channel Islands?

Perhaps the Spanish Armada defeats the British, and seizes the Channel Islands or the Isle of Wright in the peace treaty. It uses this to secure access to the English Channel, thus securing a connection to its Lowlands territory.

 

[funnyhat]

What about the Channel Islands?

Perhaps the Spanish Armada defeats the British, and seizes the Channel Islands or the Isle of Wright in the peace treaty. It uses this to secure access to the English Channel, thus securing a connection to its Lowlands territory.

I see the Channel Islands as a slightly different issue, given that they're farther away from the British mainland. A non-French conquest of them would definitely change the geopolitical situation, though, as it would mean having three different countries in with territory in the Channel instead of two.

The Isle of Wight would certainly qualify.