AHC: a completly alien "English" language.

[FleetMac]

The point of anglish isn't to "Germanise" English. It's just a fun exercise. It has no political undertones. No racist undertones. No historical undertones. No extremist undertones.
It's just for fun. It's a game.

I'm aware of that (hell, that was what I was getting at up-thread), it just seems a strange choice for replacing "state" is all. Personally I'd go with "shire" or "rickling" but that's just me.

EDIT: I used those two examples for "state" in the US sense, as a nation I'd think "theedship" or "rick".

 

[jakewilson]

See, I take exception to this as it presupposes (rather ignorantly, at that) an ulterior motive that frankly doesn't exist; just because the words "pure" and "Germanic" are put together DOESN'T mean neo-Nazism, and operates under an utterly innocent and non-racialist framework (it even has precedent IOTL through cases like in Icelandic, and even frickin' French!).

And as far as the whole "normative idea of Englishness unrelated to the English language and Anglophone people as they actually exist" claim? How do you explain the utter dearth of wide-scale Latinisms in Old English (the use of Church Latin doesn't count IMHO, as it applied to a specific field only and even then in limited scope...besides, everybody did it, from the Byzantines to the Bavarians). English is, was and always will be GERMANIC. I fail to see how or why this should ever be construed as a bad thing, because it isn't one any more than how speaking a Slavic language is a bad thing ('cause, y'know, if you speak a Slavic language you're automatically Marxist, just like how discussing "pure Germanic neologisms" makes one a Fascist ...who's being racialist, again?).

Linguistic purism as a total end-goal is unrealistic, true, but there's nary any harm at all in reclaiming at least some of the roots of a language so splattered with foreign influence as to negate its own identity. I guess as a linguist I'm all about preserving a language's "flavor" to the utmost, and Old English had flavor a-plenty to go around without having that Norman mess thrust upon it needlessly (being influenced through trade and prestige is fine, but not the genocidal, domineering oversway that The Bastard and Co. introduced). And it's not like only English could benefit from this, Maltese is so Italic in its vocabulary as to be largely incomprehensible in educated speech to a speaker of any Semitic language; I would whole-heartedly support a re-wording of their language (even if just a LITTLE bit), by those interested in such, in order to freshen the slate and re-introduce the language as it was, and how it can further be with its origins rendered anew.

Obviously not everyone who holds to linguistic purism is racist. George Orwell, for example, was a huge supporter of Saxonism and he can hardly be called a Nazi. There have been racist adherents of linguistic purism, but they were and are a minority.

And Anglish is really, really fun. I often try to free translate things I read into Germanic idiom because it a.) is a fun challenge, and b.) makes one more mindful of the language.

But the whole idea that the Germanic roots are plainer than the Romance is just as bad as the idea that the Romance is grander than the Germanic. And if you read the Anglish translations, you will see that the flavor changes significantly, the rhythm becomes much more 'Dutch' sounding. The flavor of English and its essential character is an awesome weird mix of doubled vocabulary and dissonant roots made consonant. It is not like Icelandic or French or any other moribund, hidebound language.

One more thing: The dearth of Latinisms in Old English is irrelevent. Old English is no longer a language of communication. Actual English as it is used today and for nigh on a millennium has heavy Norman influence. It's a bit weird if you view the language of our founding authors (Chaucer, Spenser, Shakespeare) as intrinsically foreign, but think of Beowulf as normative of Englishness.

 

[jakewilson]

I'm aware of that (hell, that was what I was getting at up-thread), it just seems a strange choice for replacing "state" is all. Personally I'd go with "shire" or "rickling" but that's just me.

EDIT: I used those two examples for "state" in the US sense, as a nation I'd think "theedship" or "rick".

I think the idea is that it's a calque of 'commonwealth' or 'republic.' In contrast to 'Kingdom.'

 

[CandyDragon]

An idea from "Silent" Maps for a language thread - oh, the irony!

But seriously and off-topic, what is "Silent Maps"?

It's a Shared Worlds map game series, where, starting from an OTL start-map, users take turns to modify the map. Unlike a usual map game, there is no justification of this change, hence the silent.

It's a bit of a simpler game, seeing as each map can be knocked out without any justification for any changes. Then again, I generally avoid map games, so I'm not really one to judge.

 

[The Professor]

I think the idea is that it's a calque of 'commonwealth' or 'republic.' In contrast to 'Kingdom.'

I'd understand if it was used in that context but it's not. e.g. American Republic can be calqued as Americkish Folkdom (or Folkric) but United States of America is more Banded Shires/Lands of Americk(land) than Banded Folkdoms which implies United Republics.
And in fact if we want to be more exact then "to ane" means "to unite" so The Aned Shires.
(Commonwealth is Meanwealth btw)

I enjoy the fun Anglish attempts more when someone is actually playing it properly than just inserting words that are Anglified versions of Dutch or German rather than the natural descendants of the Old English ones

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

I'm aware of that (hell, that was what I was getting at up-thread), it just seems a strange choice for replacing "state" is all. Personally I'd go with "shire" or "rickling" but that's just me.

EDIT: I used those two examples for "state" in the US sense, as a nation I'd think "theedship" or "rick".

"Folkdom" doesn't look so bad, but it seems rather to be a substitute for "nation", doesn't it?

It's funny to compare how the Latin "status" was substituted in German:
It was first translated to "Stand", which could be imitated in English (as "standing" or else), and encompassed many other meanings like "state (e.g. of the art)".

For the word "republic" there were two peculiar attempts in the 19th century to come up with a German word: "Freistaat" and "Volksstaat". The former didn't catch on at all, the other isn't that frequent either ....

 

[jakewilson]

I'd understand if it was used in that context but it's not. e.g. American Republic can be calqued as Americkish Folkdom (or Folkric) but United States of America is more Banded Shires/Lands of Americk(land) than Banded Folkdoms which implies United Republics.
And in fact if we want to be more exact then "to ane" means "to unite" so The Aned Shires.
(Commonwealth is Meanwealth btw)

I enjoy the fun Anglish attempts more when someone is actually playing it properly than just inserting words that are Anglified versions of Dutch or German rather than the natural descendants of the Old English ones

I quite agree, I'm just trying to explain the thinking. Generally, I think that calques of Romance words and Anglicizations of German/Dutch are cheating.

Also annoying is when they replaced Germanic words with more obscure versions. The translation of the 'I Have A Dream' speech, for example, substitutes 'boys' and 'girls' with 'carls' and 'frows.' Except that boy and girl are both Anglo-Saxon, and carl and frow were probably already dropped from everyday speech before the Conquest.

 

[Zireael]

'boy' isn't Anglo-Saxon, it's French (A-S didn't have the /oi/ sound). I think the Anglo-Saxon word for 'boy' was 'cniht'.

And 'girl' AFAIR is Anglo-Saxon and should be used.

 

[jakewilson]

'boy' isn't Anglo-Saxon, it's French (A-S didn't have the /oi/ sound). I think the Anglo-Saxon word for 'boy' was 'cniht'.

And 'girl' AFAIR is Anglo-Saxon and should be used.

The problem is that 'knight' has a new meaning, and couldn't really be used then. Hmm.

EDIT: Looked it up, and there is some disagreement over whether boy is French, Dutch, or Anglo-Saxon. What do you do in cases of disputed etymology?

 

[RomanNumeralII]

The problem is that 'knight' has a new meaning, and couldn't really be used then. Hmm.

EDIT: Looked it up, and there is some disagreement over whether boy is French, Dutch, or Anglo-Saxon. What do you do in cases of disputed etymology?

If we drop "boy", we could replace it with something like "knave".

I think you just go with your instinct on whichever seems most likely.

 

[FleetMac]

I'd understand if it was used in that context but it's not. e.g. American Republic can be calqued as Americkish Folkdom (or Folkric) but United States of America is more Banded Shires/Lands of Americk(land) than Banded Folkdoms which implies United Republics.
And in fact if we want to be more exact then "to ane" means "to unite" so The Aned Shires.
(Commonwealth is Meanwealth btw)

I enjoy the fun Anglish attempts more when someone is actually playing it properly than just inserting words that are Anglified versions of Dutch or German rather than the natural descendants of the Old English ones

I agree that actually using Old English words/features instead of re-packaged German/Dutch is the more fun of the two options (the latter IMHO should only be when there's not equivalent concept in Old English, although the OE Wiki has some surprisingly modern entries if one searches long enough).

My translation for U.S.A. would be "Foroned Shires of Americksland", with "Foroned" being formed from Anglo-Saxon etymology ("for" + "one", since the "modern" OE for USA would be Geānedan Rīcu American and AFAIK there's been no attempt or need to ednew the "ge-" prefix in Anglish), and a cognate for Dutch "Verenigde" or Frisian "Feriene". And FWIW "Meanwealth" is a pretty cool name.

And regarding "boy", it did enter English from OE " *bōia", itself derived from Proto-Germanic *bōjô (“younger brother, young male relation”); at least, that's what Wiktionary quotes, although the OED implies it might have had a different semantic meaning.

 

[jakewilson]

And regarding "boy", it did enter English from OE " *bōia", itself derived from Proto-Germanic *bōjô (“younger brother, young male relation”); at least, that's what Wiktionary quotes, although the OED implies it might have had a different semantic meaning.

Online Etymological Dictionary cites the Old French 'embuie' meaning something like 'bondsman,' but it also gives a Dutch and OE etymology. The main problem with OE is that 'Boia' apparently only existed as a proper name, but I don't really see that as an impediment (think of 'guy' in modern English).

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

That's funny with this purism games:
You can't even tell which words you need to avoid.

Also, what if a clearly word of Germanic origin has obtained a completely new meaning by, say, Latin influence? This happened to many words, e.g. sin, holy, ...

And just being curious: How do you say "money" in Anglish?
OE it was feoh, i.e. cattle. There's not even an off-spring of that word left, no matter in what meaning ...

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

P.S.:

I suddenly feel the urge to repost my illustration of the (non-existent) Unix ls-command option that analyzes for etymology:

 

[Codae]

OE it was feoh, i.e. cattle. There's not even an off-spring of that word left, no matter in what meaning ...

Is "fee" not the same?

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

Is "fee" not the same?

Wow, it is. Touché.

I mean, hit.

Dammit, that was Norse. STRUCK.

 

[FleetMac]

That's funny with this purism games:
You can't even tell which words you need to avoid.

Also, what if a clearly word of Germanic origin has obtained a completely new meaning by, say, Latin influence? This happened to many words, e.g. sin, holy, ...

And just being curious: How do you say "money" in Anglish?
OE it was feoh, i.e. cattle. There's not even an off-spring of that word left, no matter in what meaning ...

Well, when in doubt I just try to combine wordbits together to make up a new one, or if that doesn't work then borrow something from another language of the same family (Icelandic's great for this). And some of my favorite words that has taken on a whole new meaning thanks to Latin, even though it existed in OE, is "Camp" (a cognate of German Kampf, pertaining to the military) and "Sell" (used to just mean give or donate, no money implied). And "fee" does seem to come from feoh, even if given a Norman sheen.

EDIT: Argghh, ninja'd

 

[jakewilson]

No! Fee is French! It has the same proto-Germanic root as feoh, but derives from Frankish, not Old English.

 

[FleetMac]

No! Fee is French! It has the same proto-Germanic root as feoh, but derives from Frankish, not Old English.

And Frankish is a Germanic language, not a Romance one. French ≠ Frankish, the latter of which is more closely related to the Franconian languages (Netherlandish, Moiselle German, Flemish, etc.) than anything else.

 

[jakewilson]

And Frankish is a Germanic language, not a Romance one. French ≠ Frankish, the latter of which is more closely related to the Franconian languages (Netherlandish, Moiselle German, Flemish, etc.) than anything else.

Frankish -> Gallic sub-Latin -> Old French -> Middle English. My point is that it's not derived from OE feoh, and so doesn't count as an Anglo-Saxon root. And I know my Dark Ages languages, dude, don't worry.