AHC: A Breton William the Bastard

[material_boy]

No, he didn't, because he wasn't elected, and the Saxons elected their kings.

Elections lost much of their importance long before William was even born. See, for instance, that Edmund Ironside had himself crowned in London without election -- indeed, had himself crowned in defiance of the witan electing Cnut in Southampton. See also that the election of Harold Harefoot led to nothing more than his regency for Harthacnut for some time.

Said Hungarian had the best claim. He’s called an Aetheling for good reason. It doesn’t matter what culture he is, it’s his paternal descent that mattered the most.

I mean, clearly he didn't since Harold Godwinson took the crown 😅

 

[Janprimus]

As for the OP does it have to be England? Brittany could be the one conquering and uniting Ireland or end up on the Scottish throne. Just some other ideas.

 

[Brita]

A few PODs come to my mind:
- Alan the Great is succeeded by one of his sons only - OTL it seems his sons and son-in-law divided his inheritance instead
- Alan II marries one of Æthelstan's half-sisters and with help from his brother-in-law, manages to assert his authority on all of Brittany (not just Nantes) which allows him to be acknowledged as a King, not a mere Duke.
- a later POD would be to have Edward the Confessor landing in Brittany instead of Normandy in the 1010s - let's say his ship gets blown off course - and welcomed by his aunt Hawise of Normandy. He spends most of his exile in Brittany and upon his death one of his cousins - either Conan II or his uncle Odo of Penthièvre claims England.

 

[eliamartin65]

- a later POD would be to have Edward the Confessor landing in Brittany instead of Normandy in the 1010s - let's say his ship gets blown off course - and welcomed by his aunt Hawise of Normandy. He spends most of his exile in Brittany and upon his death one of his cousins - either Conan II or his uncle Odo of Penthièvre claims England.

I like this idea so much!

 

[Brita]

I like this idea so much!

Thanks!

 

[eliamartin65]

Thanks!

You're the expert in Brittany so you're welcome.

 

[Brita]

You're the expert in Brittany so you're welcome.

Well Medieval Brittany's probably the one subject I really know . To come back to the last POD, I think Odo would be more likely to claim England. Although he's old, he has several sons (some of them accompanied William OTL) to secure his succession, and as he's been defeated by Conan a few years before, he may well decide to try his luck somewhere else (and becoming King of England when his nephew's only Duke of Brittany might taste like sweet revenge for him )

 

[eliamartin65]

Well Medieval Brittany's probably the one subject I really know . To come back to the last POD, I think Odo would be more likely to claim England. Although he's old, he has several sons (some of them accompanied William OTL) to secure his succession, and as he's been defeated by Conan a few years before, he may well decide to try his luck somewhere else (and becoming King of England when his nephew's only Duke of Brittany might taste like sweet revenge for him )

I LOVE your line of thinking.

 

[how]

I mean, clearly he didn't since Harold Godwinson took the crown 😅

Edward the exile died a few days after returning to England, he had been elected by the witan as successor.

 

[Janprimus]

Well Medieval Brittany's probably the one subject I really know . To come back to the last POD, I think Odo would be more likely to claim England. Although he's old, he has several sons (some of them accompanied William OTL) to secure his succession, and as he's been defeated by Conan a few years before, he may well decide to try his luck somewhere else (and becoming King of England when his nephew's only Duke of Brittany might taste like sweet revenge for him )

I understand, however even IOTL even William didn't conquer England with his Normans alone, he had to recruit nobles and men from Flanders, Brittany, Champagne, Picardy, Anjou etc. basically the whole of Northern France. Could Odo realistically recruit the same numbers, especially since IOTL William had a large well trained base army of his own, since by 1066 William as duke was in control of his nobles.
And even William had the luck that Harald Hardrada invaded first.

Wouldn't Odo be more suited to conquer a place like Ireland?

 

[piratedude]

Wouldn't Odo be more suited to conquer a place like Ireland?

You say that as if Ireland is somehow easy to conquer?

 

[Janprimus]

You say that as if Ireland is somehow easy to conquer?

It would be a longer process, but I doubt Odo could muster the same amount of men as William IOTL to challenge a more unified England. IMHO it would be easier to conquer Ireland for him or a duke of Brittany than to conquer England. OTOH Ireland is rather decentralized, OTOH the most obvious alternative target, Scotland, is just too removed from Brittany.
Given all the restraints Ireland would have been the best option, though it could be a longer affair. maybe not the Norman conquest of Southern Italy and Sicily long, but with the lack of a real central monarchy it will be longer, yet IMHO it is a doable target. And a place, which unlike Brittany can make you an unquestioned king.

 

[TRH]

It would be a longer process, but I doubt Odo could muster the same amount of men as William IOTL to challenge a more unified England. IMHO it would be easier to conquer Ireland for him or a duke of Brittany than to conquer England. OTOH Ireland is rather decentralized, OTOH the most obvious alternative target, Scotland, is just too removed from Brittany.
Given all the restraints Ireland would have been the best option, though it could be a longer affair. maybe not the Norman conquest of Southern Italy and Sicily long, but with the lack of a real central monarchy it will be longer, yet IMHO it is a doable target. And a place, which unlike Brittany can make you an unquestioned king.

A longer campaign seems undesirable given Odo’s age and precarious situation at home.

 

[Janprimus]

A longer campaign seems undesirable given Odo’s age and precarious situation at home.

Perhaps, but he doesn't have the means to conquer England either.

 

[piratedude]

Perhaps, but he doesn't have the means to conquer England either.

I mean, given the OP said the POD can be as far back as Alan the Great, it wouldn't be super hard to put Brittany into the position where they do have those means.

And honestly Ireland deserves a break from all the invasions, they have enough trouble on their own

 

[Math]

It would be a longer process, but I doubt Odo could muster the same amount of men as William IOTL to challenge a more unified England. IMHO it would be easier to conquer Ireland for him or a duke of Brittany than to conquer England. OTOH Ireland is rather decentralized, OTOH the most obvious alternative target, Scotland, is just too removed from Brittany.
Given all the restraints Ireland would have been the best option, though it could be a longer affair. maybe not the Norman conquest of Southern Italy and Sicily long, but with the lack of a real central monarchy it will be longer, yet IMHO it is a doable target. And a place, which unlike Brittany can make you an unquestioned king.

Such a conqueror could not recruit Welshmen, cornish Or even Irish?, He could appeal to something Breton among the Welsh and cornish On expelling the english (I've already posted a century Welsh poem that talks about this) , could try to recruit some men in Ireland?

 

[Bluetooth]

Wasn't one of the Breton King's a foster son/hostage of Aethelstan? That could be a convenient route but would require the Anglo-Saxon collapse to be expedited

 

[piratedude]

Wasn't one of the Breton King's a foster son/hostage of Aethelstan? That could be a convenient route but would require the Anglo-Saxon collapse to be expedited

Alan II was in exile in Aethelstan's court because vikings had driven his family out of Brittany, along with Louis IV of France, until both returned to the mainland in 936.

Actually, if Alan and Louis worked more closely together and had a bit more luck they could probably greatly reduce the Normans; for example, the previous French king (Rudolph/Radulf) was the one who gave the Normans the breton territories of the Contentin peninsula & Avranchin in 933, so when William Longsword is assassinated in 942 and Louis stepped in to take control, he could return those territories to Alan.

 

[Brita]

Such a conqueror could not recruit Welshmen, cornish Or even Irish?, He could appeal to something Breton among the Welsh and cornish On expelling the english (I've already posted a century Welsh poem that talks about this) , could try to recruit some men in Ireland?

It's a possibility. And Odo had at least 12 sons (not all legitimate though) so he could use them to create marital alliances.
Conan II might even support him if he thinks it's a good way to get rid of him - I say might because there's the other side of the coin: if Odo becomes King of England, he or his successor may decide to use this new power base to try and reclaim Brittany.

I understand, however even IOTL even William didn't conquer England with his Normans alone, he had to recruit nobles and men from Flanders, Brittany, Champagne, Picardy, Anjou etc. basically the whole of Northern France. Could Odo realistically recruit the same numbers, especially since IOTL William had a large well trained base army of his own, since by 1066 William as duke was in control of his nobles.
And even William had the luck that Harald Hardrada invaded first.

Wouldn't Odo be more suited to conquer a place like Ireland?

Another possible POD would be to have William die, for instance during the war against Conan II in 1064: his eldest son is about 13 so Normandy might experience a period of political instability and Conan II could live longer (if William was the one who ordered his murder OTL) and expand Brittany into Anjou and maybe part of Normandy (it seems he was trying to restore Brittany's borders as they used to be at the time of Kings Erispoë and Salmon).

 

[ArchimedesCircle]

Idk that there's much to this.

William was just a lying psychopath with money, a good marriage, some military ability and charisma.

He didn't have a legit claim or anything, he had just been around Edward long enough that he could plausibly claim that Edward had promised the throne to him.

Which is about as valid as me claiming that I'm the legitimate president because Obama told me I was his boy.

So it's not crazy to imagine that a Breton instead of a Norman has all those characteristics.

Conan II, William's rival and the Duke of Brittany in 1066 seems like a good candidate.