AHC: A better post-Shuttle rocket program

Before we dive right in let’s make sure we’re all on the same page as to the primary reason the Shuttle was designed the way it was. NASA’s primary goal since the very beginning of the Shuttle concept was that a crew would be required for every flight to ensure that the Manned Spaceflight program would remain the main focus of NASA. Really no more and no less than that as can be shown by the fact the Orbiter was built and wired to be flown remotely from the beginning, (should something happen to the crew) but the only way that could be done was by hand connecting a special wiring harness between the flight computers and the control computers. While installed for the first two flights it was never carried on-board again during a flight. Combined with an operational plan that called for the Shuttle to be the ONLY US launch system by the year 2000, (originally 1990 but the schedule slipped due to the operational date of the Shuttle being pushed back) this was guaranteed to ensure NASA Manned Spaceflight would remain the supreme purpose of NASA. Cynical of course but there it is.

From this reasoning then it can be clearly seen that any concept or utilization of the STS components that did NOT require a crew on every flight were dismissed out of hand due to violating that prime reasoning. Hence even though Rockwell itself had studied and forwarded such concepts to NASA they were trashed upon receipt or filed away somewhere ‘safe’. (Like in a storeroom behind the Men’s lavatory with a prominent sign saying “Beware the Leper!” for example)

A secondary reasoning was the need to recover the “upper” stage engines which was found to be problematical in general. But oddly enough coupled with the primary reason led to the idea that they (crew and engines) should be connected together in some manner which also led to the idea of installing a place for carrying cargo between the two. So no matter how much other things had to be compromised or rearranged in the end the trinity of crew, cargo-bay and engines remained intact.

Until a very cold morning in 1986 and the launch and subsequent destruction of the Space Shuttle Challenger. At this point someone finally admits the Emperor has no clothes but OTL the reaction from NASA is to continue to insist that the primary purpose of the Shuttle is to fly a crew on every flight while the official report to both NASA and Congress, (and the public) clearly states, well first of all “Don’t fly when it’s cold” but also points out there is no real reason to fly both cargo and crew as most flights do not in fact really NEED the crew once you ‘fix’ that whole remote flight system which of course NASA ‘declined’ (prime directive and all that) but considered for the ‘next’ crew vehicle. In general this gave NASA an excuse to drop “commercial” payload support which was one of their main justifications for having the Shuttle declared the primary US launch vehicle but for which they didn’t have the capacity to support. (In fact this is the point also where the Air Force does another about-face from full support of the Shuttle to looking for alternatives which will eventually push to the EELV program beginning in 1994) This causes the satellite industry to go looking for alternatives as most US launch providers had already begun to ramp down production to cede it to the Shuttle. (China, Russia and France all were very appreciative of the whole deal)

And then NASA “fixed” the Shuttle by adding an escape system, (the fire pole) while designing into the next vehicle they wanted (Shuttle II) an actual escape capsule. (Nice idea but given how complex that sucker got to avoid using SRBs along with the mass of that escape capsule you can see why it never got anywhere)

The mantra of don’t-fly-cargo-and-crew on the same flight, (one could argue the REAL “lesson-learned” was better expressed as “have a crew escape system” but…) brought up again those previously rejected concepts into the light of day. Enter Shuttle-C, Z, etc. Still at this point the ISS is being built and launches scheduled so the actual ‘need’ for an unmanned shuttle seems to be less and if we’re being totally honest there is no real incentive either politically or in NASA to make any radical changes because NASA is finally getting its post-Apollo dream: A space station serviced by a reusable space shuttle. Full stop.

Literally that’s IT for NASA’s foreseeable future. And why not since NASA is going on and on about the ISS being the “first” step in a return to the Moon and Mars and now G. W. Bush is proposing the whole VSE thing and encouraging NASA to “dream big” not that they need the help…

But let’s back up to 1986 again and suggest that this was a perfect opportunity for NASA to come clean about the Shuttle’s shortcomings as both official and unofficial investigation was pointing out that Congressional hands were almost as ‘dirty’ as the officially blamed “NASA culture” for those shortcomings. NASA’s budget was getting a temporary boost to ‘fix’ the main issues with the Shuttle but was instead spent on ‘band aids’ (fire pole) and accelerating already in work fixes, (SRB joints) so that the Shuttle could officially return to flight in order to work on the ISS. And I’d like to think that handled with vigor and aplomb, (ie: blackmail if needs be) a compromise could be worked out where NASA is assured that as long as it really works out the Shuttle issues and allows enough expanded option to cover its original commitments that Congress will allow an adequate budget and support for building up a Cis-Lunar infrastructure capable of eventually going beyond LEO. BUT! NASA has to submit and stick to a comprehensive NEAR-TERM (no Mars but maybe LATER the Moon, you’ve been warned) sustainable and affordable plan that they and Congress can agree on.

Nearly ASB or course if for no other reason that Congress has no need or really basis to actually trust NASA to stick to any bargain they make since they have not done so at any point in their history if they thought they could get away with it. Armored by the assurance in their own minds that as had happened in 1979, (see:https://arstechnica.com/science/201...-why-did-jimmy-carter-save-the-space-shuttle/, and https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-carter-lets-the-space-shuttle-die.396883/) “a miracle” would occur since no one would DREAM of shutting down American space flight and closing NASA! Hyperbole? Oh heck yes as it was only in the minds of some of the same people who never accepted cuts in the Apollo budget that demanding NASA do what it actually said it was doing was a possible outcome. Or that there was more to “US space flight” than manned flights. That Congress looked to be doing exactly that was no help whatsoever of course. But…

Here NASA has two incentives, one long term and one near term; First they get enough to actually ‘fix’ most of the real Shuttle issues though to be honest ‘crew-escape’ is likely not one of them beyond the fire-pole. Beyond this in the near term they are going to ‘lose’ some manned flights but as per OTL they can managed to keep the majority by being more careful and reducing the flight pace. They are going to ‘lose’ the manned portion of some but played right it will allow them to turn the aptly named “Space Transportation SYSTEM” into an actual system and increase their general flight schedule. Which in the long run means MORE not less manned flights after all.

See while they no longer can insist that every flight be manned at the same time developing an unmanned, possibly recoverable version of the STS is quite possible AND it cuts the Air Force running to build/buy another launch system off at the knees. (OTL till the EELV came online Congress allowed the Air Force an additional budget to purchase Titan-IV’s which the Air Force lied about being ‘cost-effective’ because it played on the Titan ICBM legacy. In reality about the only thing they had in common was the name and propellants because the Titan-IV cores were all new and specially built which drove up the cost greatly) And since an STS based LV could dispense with the ‘standard’ Shuttle payload interfaces and replace them with say, Titan based ones the fact that the Air Force canceled and re-ordered all its post-Challenger satellites with Titan rather than Shuttle interfaces means we’re SAVING the Air Force money!

Don’t laugh manically at the Air Force there NASA its rude. Seriously, its unbecoming and frankly beginning to get a little, ok a LOT creepy. I’m serious stop it right now or go to your room… I can still hear you!
Uhm, where was I? Oh yes…

Now while the “Sidemount” configuration has issues, (see previous posts) a very important point is that by making small and incremental changes, (afore mentioned SSI External Tank modifications study) such as needed to utilize both or either Aft Cargo Carrier (ACC) and/or Forward Cargo Carrier (FCC)) and other modifications. Along the way it might be more clear that the idea of incorporating the required structural elements also allows in essence ends up with an ET fully capable of being used as an ‘in-line’ heavy launch vehicle pretty easily. (Note the studies on the ACC showed it was pretty straight forward to turning it into an engine-thrust structure which the Air Force confirmed with their Titan based booster module studies)

Which in and of itself is a huge step forward for the whole ‘system’ since once the ORBITERS are retired NASA and the US will continue to have a basic man rated launch vehicle for any follow on crew vehicle designed to utilize the same system.

What’s that? A capsule? Quaint of course, and as we’ll find out OTL during the OSP program actually what NASA requirements are more suited to, but in fact we could just as well develop a smaller manned winged or lifting body, (even one developed from the original Orbiter as per: https://www.aiaa.org/uploadedfiles/...uttle_launches/shuttlevariationsfinalaiaa.pdf) that is lofted by SRBs and engines mounted on the ET. Sounds like Energia you say? Well WE say the Russians copied us so there…

More seriously in this type of arrangement, especially once you understand the STS is in fact a ‘system’ and treat it as such then replacing the current “orbiter” with a more advanced version while retaining the general configuration actually is pretty straight forward.

What, you say that doesn’t solve the crew escape situation? Keep in mind that neither the SRB nor the ET rupture directly killed Challenger. What did her in was once she lost thrust she had no control over her attitude since she was going too fast for effective aerodynamic control AND still attached to the SRBs and what was left of the ET. Had she been able to jettison those items she had a fighting chance to wrestle herself into a glide back to the runway. AS the whole design was based on any emergency NOT happening when the SRBs were running that wasn’t possible. But give her onboard propellant and propulsion (page 3 figure 5 above) and she can not only separate but if she has to remain to SRB burnout there’s a fighting chance she can power her way into keeping the nose forward till that point. Further by developing and deploying either of the recoverable engine pod concepts, (page 2 figures 1 to 4) we can get back into at least long distance of the initial cost reduction goals. (Higher flight rate helps, recovery distance hurts so it’s may be a wash but it trying at least)

Annoyingly the SSME’s themselves on the Orbiter greatly hindered its flight characteristics. Moving them to a pod under the ET frees up mass on the Orbiter and once it is re-balanced it will have lighter less stressful entry and landings which is always a good thing. Boeing also chimed in with some ‘minimum’ (page 10 figure 22) but very promising ‘straight-forward’ modification to enhance the STS.

And while we’re at it we might as well acknowledge that by 1986 there was an interest in the utilization of the external tanks on-orbit to the point that despite what happened post-Challenger OTL both Congress and President Reagan directed NASA to make external tanks “available” to entrepreneurs and interested parties. (See:https://spacefrontier.org/external-tanks/ Good links to ET technical papers and concept here too. The ‘catch’ was and the out used by NASA was those parties had first prove and provide functions ON-ORBIT before NASA would plan a delivery. Arguably this is a good call since it was known that if the tanks wasn’t stabilized and drained within a few hours of reaching orbit it would explode due to internal pressure build up)

A positive incentive TTL versus OTL is that with an expanded mandate (and the support to maintain a higher flight rate) NASA has a bit more incentive to reach out to commercial interests that could help get these concepts off the ground. (Pun intended) The downside as mentioned previously is companies like Boeing and LM are going to either jump into opening services for these outposts or lobby to have them denied to protect their own share of building orbital modules. But it is hard to understate how different both operational and future planning would be given any possible on-orbit use of the available volumes involved. (The ET LH2 tanks is over 53,000 cubic-ft while the LOX tank is another 19,000 cubic-feet and neither includes the inter-stage volume)

The most prominent downside is most of the more expansive concepts take some serious EVA work to accomplish. A LOT of serious EVA work to be upfront and the issue is no Space Suit is really designed to be capable of that kind of work because no one requires them to. It’s a very fair point when it comes to ‘wet’ module design but the main counter is that WVB along with several other engineers from his design team, (aka a bunch of engineers in their mid-to-late 50s at the time) stuffed themselves into space suits and dove into the neutral buoyancy simulator at Marshall and actually put their ideas on building a wet lab to the test. (And from a maintenance man’s perspective my hard hat is off to them for putting their ideas to the test instead of leaving for someone else to try) The final report was that it was quite doable, (but keep in mind they were using modified Gemini suits which in fact were horrible for EVA use) and that extra hand holds and fittings would be helpful. Now take into account that unlike the S-IVB stage used previously the ET had significant pre-installed openings that were only sealed by a bolt-on door and which was remarkably easy to expand to a size allowing a fully suited astronaut to enter and exit and OTHER than the space-suit issue the utility of the ET is obvious.

Again the main issue is there are/were no space suits designed for extensive manual on-orbit work.

But as a very “plus” column outcome the requirements for possible commercial use, (which OTL NASA fought tooth-and-nail) would have required a ‘fix’ for the loose insulation as well as some beefing-up of the ET general structure. But in the common “Chicken/Egg” issue delivery of an ET to orbit requires some sort of on-orbit presence by someone who would utilized the tank before such a tank could be delivered. (The often mentioned idea of ‘storing’ ET’s on-orbit neglects the very real and prolonged danger this represents as well as the number of international agreements it violates. Hence the need for an ‘on-orbit’ presence to USE the tanks before they can be delivered catch-all) Still an extended mandate and more direct support FROM commercial interests is likely to engender similar reciprocation from NASA in the form of less hostility towards those same commercial interests.

So as per the illustration in the SSI document on page 37 (page 51-53 shows a much more complex but capable ACC Service Module Station Core) showing an ACC fitted out with a Spacelab module and a Shuttle mission that carries the crew to orbit along with a cargo bay carried ‘emergency’ return vehicle “getting” that capability may be pretty straight forward. And if that is too much work the possibility of a ‘dry’ module launched on a sidemount, or inline SDV is always there.

What is around to prevent this is simply that in capability and possibility utilizing the STS and External Tank to their logical conclusion presents quite possibly far too MUCH to both NASA and others. Even if we assume no more than the budget given to construct the ISS OTL it becomes clear that the amount of pressurized space available is far too vast for that budget to outfit. Worse the required on-orbit operations will require a drastic and extensive re-working of space suits into models capable of being used efficiently and effectively for long hours in addition to a paradigm shift in the planning and execution of EVA activities. Even if we only assume that half (4 of 8) a “good” year’s flights deliver an ET to a usable orbit and make it available it would rapidly outstrip both the available budget and capability available to NASA or anyone else to utilize. While it won’t necessarily stay that way the situation will not change rapidly and as noted above it cuts out a majority of large aerospace companies who are not directly tied to ACC or other modular construction contracts. (A disincentive both for NASA and Congress)

And trust me when I say this hurts to admit for there was a time, not very long ago when the idea of calling a 300 foot diameter, (eight LH2 tanks connected by eight ‘angle’ segments carried up as ACC cargo) AG station capable of handling over 200 people in comfort “too much” would be unthinkable but in truth it is very much so given the capability available to utilize it let alone build it. Keep very much in mind that most industrial research benefits more from a smaller scale experimental system and specifically requires micro-gravity to function. One could argue that ANY AG station is only useful for curiosity sake since any BLEO operations are likely not going to include AG.

There is also the consideration of how this effects general commercial operations which will change significantly as well. Once you have an on-orbit presence the temptation to utilized it to expand and service commercial operations means that many initial and advanced concepts that dealt with everything from LEO-cluster arrays, (a non-starter when you have a lot of infrastructure and operations in LEO already) to cheaper access, (SpaceX and BO for example are very unlikely to be founded) get pushed aside. On the other hand you have MEO and GEO satellites that are now designed to take advantage of what on-orbit services are offered. Designed to be serviced and repaired and there is incentive to make them even bigger, more robust satellites with more of a ‘plug-and-play’ architecture to facilitate such activities and upgrades. Which further reduces the need for general space launch rather than enhances it. So we can try and assume factors like Space Tourism or industry but really there were somewhat sound reasons NASA and most official space agencies opposed the concepts. (In the industrial case the rationalizations are marginal at best anyway but this way there are at least more opportunities to experiment and possibly find viable business models)

It's arguably a "win" but the question of how much "better" it would be if probably very subjective :)

Randy
 
So I was speaking a few posts back about a SDLV with one SSME that might end up being an ugly alternative to the Delta IV Heavy or Atlas V Heavy if Congress was determined to get contracts for ATK. It seems Boeing actually proposed such a vehicle back in the 80s - their version of the "Jarvis" (see Ed Kyle's nice page for this and other SDLV concepts) which was to launch 80,000 lbs into LEO.

Probably not an efficient way to go about things, but I bet it would be cheaper than a Delta IV Heavy launch...

Of course, if a Delta IV Heavy became the main way for the US to launch crews to the ISS, the flight rate would increase by enough that it's conceivable that the Delta IV Heavy would cost less per unit than the Jarvis.

But let’s back up to 1986 again and suggest that this was a perfect opportunity for NASA to come clean about the Shuttle’s shortcomings as both official and unofficial investigation was pointing out that Congressional hands were almost as ‘dirty’ as the officially blamed “NASA culture” for those shortcomings. NASA’s budget was getting a temporary boost to ‘fix’ the main issues with the Shuttle but was instead spent on ‘band aids’ (fire pole) and accelerating already in work fixes, (SRB joints) so that the Shuttle could officially return to flight in order to work on the ISS. And I’d like to think that handled with vigor and aplomb, (ie: blackmail if needs be) a compromise could be worked out where NASA is assured that as long as it really works out the Shuttle issues and allows enough expanded option to cover its original commitments that Congress will allow an adequate budget and support for building up a Cis-Lunar infrastructure capable of eventually going beyond LEO. BUT! NASA has to submit and stick to a comprehensive NEAR-TERM (no Mars but maybe LATER the Moon, you’ve been warned) sustainable and affordable plan that they and Congress can agree on.

Hmmm. The issue of course, is that upgrades to the shuttle mostly gave it capabilities the US didn't need and spending lots of money to make a better system only 5 years into the operations of the supposedly commercial-grade space truck seems unappetizing.

On the other hand, the Soviet Union is still around so an effective manned space program is much more important to US prestige.

On balance, I am a pessimist, because fundamentally, serious space flight needs more R&D spending and more infrastructure in space it's a real long term investment... Spend buckets of money now to maybe dominate the Earth-moon system in 100 years... It isn't something that's gonna appeal to congresscritters that are facing an election in 2 years.

fasquardon
 
So I was speaking a few posts back about a SDLV with one SSME that might end up being an ugly alternative to the Delta IV Heavy or Atlas V Heavy if Congress was determined to get contracts for ATK. It seems Boeing actually proposed such a vehicle back in the 80s - their version of the "Jarvis" (see Ed Kyle's nice page for this and other SDLV concepts) which was to launch 80,000 lbs into LEO.

Probably not an efficient way to go about things, but I bet it would be cheaper than a Delta IV Heavy launch...

Probably by a lot and probably at least a bit more 'palatable' politically IF they could get the DoD interested. The problem was the DoD was back-tracking in supporting the Shuttle in ANY form because (obviously) any future 'issues' with the Shuttle/STS would likely end up grounding any SDV at well. Hence the push for an 'independent' EELV program.

Of course, if a Delta IV Heavy became the main way for the US to launch crews to the ISS, the flight rate would increase by enough that it's conceivable that the Delta IV Heavy would cost less per unit than the Jarvis.

It was a toss-up mostly because it was getting clear even as early as 1986 that in fact launch rates were going to be dropping before they ramped-up again, if they did at all. And with European, Russian and eventually Chinese launchers coming into competition...

Hmmm. The issue of course, is that upgrades to the shuttle mostly gave it capabilities the US didn't need and spending lots of money to make a better system only 5 years into the operations of the supposedly commercial-grade space truck seems unappetizing.

It was which is why it was so difficult to get any real change OTL. On the other hand NASA had always planned on upgrades and advancements to the STS but the 'plans' were both rather grandiose and pathetic in equal measure despite the supposed "15 year" lifetime of the Shuttle itself. ("Grandiose" in that any 'give' in budget they sensed and they planned to toss the whole thing and replace it with the Shuttle they WANTED, and Mars and beyond of course. "Pathetic" in that while they HAD plans for certain upgrades and improvements they unofficially and pretty much officially supported NONE of them because it wasn't the 'shuttle' they wanted in the first place and they were simply waiting for everyone to come to their senses and restore their budget and priority to "normal" once again)

The main problem was as I note you needed EVERYONE "on-board" to get anywhere and frankly that's not happened in OTL.

On the other hand, the Soviet Union is still around so an effective manned space program is much more important to US prestige.

Eh, not really as we'd already shown we didn't as a nation actually 'care' if we flew people in space or not and the USSR was at that point screwing up in space themselves so...

On balance, I am a pessimist, because fundamentally, serious space flight needs more R&D spending and more infrastructure in space it's a real long term investment... Spend buckets of money now to maybe dominate the Earth-moon system in 100 years... It isn't something that's gonna appeal to congress-critters that are facing an election in 2 years.

Actually you're not ENOUGH of a pessimist I'm afraid :) In truth it appeals to only a very small percentage of the overall population and those frankly have no real voice both because we're fractured and unorganized AND because the organization we DO have is easily distracted by words and photo-ops. Hence the politicians can easily ignore long-term policy decisions because there's no one to keep them interested over the time period needed. At least your more realistic than Zubrin and company with the idea they "only" need 10 years of attention to get what they want.

The biggest issue of all for my 'wish-fulfillment' fantasy is the capability is far to vast, far to soon with no real ability to build up in a steady or sustainable manner. As I note with only eight (8) flights you already have vastly more available pressurized volume than could conceivably be used at that time AND it still would require dozens of hours of hard EVA work to get it ready for use at a time when EVA is neither wanted nor operationally available.

Randy
 
Actually you're not ENOUGH of a pessimist I'm afraid :) In truth it appeals to only a very small percentage of the overall population and those frankly have no real voice both because we're fractured and unorganized AND because the organization we DO have is easily distracted by words and photo-ops. Hence the politicians can easily ignore long-term policy decisions because there's no one to keep them interested over the time period needed. At least your more realistic than Zubrin and company with the idea they "only" need 10 years of attention to get what they want.

I don't really think the numbers and division of space cadets is really all that decisive with how the US program has gone.

Building a space infrastructure will take trillions of dollars worth of time and resources. And it's worth asking what else that time and those resources could be invested in?

Eh, not really as we'd already shown we didn't as a nation actually 'care' if we flew people in space or not and the USSR was at that point screwing up in space themselves so...

Are you sure? NASA's budget has collapsed pretty much since the point when the US realized they really had won the Cold War and the commies weren't doing some strange trojan horse scheme.

fasquardon
 
I don't really think the numbers and division of space cadets is really all that decisive with how the US program has gone.
Building a space infrastructure will take trillions of dollars worth of time and resources. And it's worth asking what else that time and those resources could be invested in?

We are in fact no where NEAR that 'decisive' and the sad part is we've actually HAD moments to show how effective we could be ('79 Lunar Treaty) as long as we aligned with current political interests. But 'decisive'? Never happened. The problem is worse due to the aforementioned divisiveness and lack of goals but we seem to have enough 'effect' that as of today the politicians at least play lip service to listening"
http://space.nss.org/join-our-political-action-network/

But that's literally all it has been. Organizations such as the NSS give them shows of 'public support' for things like SLS and other 'official' programs but if they take one step away from full support of the 'main-line' they are not welcome back to talk to the politicians or the press anymore. Get support or infrastructure 'mentioned' by the politicians even if they only do so in closed door sessions with the advocates and little media and it's a 'victory' even when it never gets further than that. What IS 'decisive' is it is clear that they will never have to face any kind of organized or active opposition or those seeking a certain goal because they can simply trot out a faction that opposes those ideas and give them some air time instead. (For example Mars First will never argue for infrastructure or even Lunar or orbital goals because they already are well aware they don't NEED them. Solar Power Satellite advocates can be used to shout down Mars First advocates by pointing out the benefits and economics of Space Solar Power and so on)

Space advocacy has no ability to effect US Space Policy because they have no real "space policy" for which there is major support. Mars supporters are now fully divided into camps that support SLS, (as the new "Ares" so they can have Mars Direct) and supporters of SpaceX who only need full government support and we could be on Mars last week. Then there's the ones who do support general orbital (and surface to orbit lower costs) who've pinned their hopes on Blue Origin, (which means they hate SpaceX and it's fans and support btw) but BO lost half them when it partnered with "Old Space" because everyone knows it was "OldSpace and NASA" who got us stuck here in the first place...

Trillions of dollars? Drop in the bucket really and actually doubtful since we already know that costs can be far lower than they are even if we're not going to space on a regular basis. More than any government is willing to put out on a regular basis yes, but arguably we could have regular access for a decent price with no more than NASA gets now if that was in fact a national goal and desire. We also know there are current markets and demands for everything from LEO to GEO and beyond. In most cases not a lot but mainly that is because it's so hard and expensive to get there in the first place.

We've become so used to "every-gram-counts" meaning that you only put up the minimum necessary to the exact place necessary that it has become a rote paradigm and we can't see beyond that. It has effected ever level from the Space Advocates to the the space entrepreneur and even the general public's perception! Recall for a moment how hard Elon Musk has fought the concept that the BFS (tanker) can in fact perform SSTO missions with a good amount of payload. More if you accept assisted-SSTO operations. Why? Well number one advocating SSTO of any stripe turns the public and politicians right the heck off and against you but even more "important" in the narrative he's building Earth orbital and Cis-Lunar operations are very much a 'side-show' for BFR/BFS. You NEED the huge BFR to launch a "hundred" passengers and crew into orbit where the "fully loaded" propellant tankers set it up to go to Mars and that's pretty much it. The Moon? A billionaire (other than Musk) is paying for it so why not it doesn't effect his planning as it is a one shot deal at best. Earth orbit? Only to launch a LEO satellite constellation to help pay for Mars. Other than that (and delivering propellant to the BFS) its a side show and useless.

Even Blue Origin which is supposed to be AIMED at orbital operations cheaply has gone ahead and advocated a huge "SLS" equivalent booster, (New Glenn on the low side New Armstrong on the upper side) because that seems to be what 'everyone' wants. What are they actually getting 'paid' to make? Not a simple Suborbital Class One tourist system but the engines for a new ELV that is only medium class launch capacity. And beyond that the "new hope" is in fact cubesats and smallsats as a way to 'commercialize' space.

Even if you believe (and many do) that space industrialization and research can and should be handled with multiple small automated satellites to find out how to make space 'pay' (and I'm one btw) the actual capability of the launch market it going in opposite directions away from that point.

Are you sure? NASA's budget has collapsed pretty much since the point when the US realized they really had won the Cold War and the commies weren't doing some strange trojan horse scheme.

NASA's budget started collapsing before we set foot on the Moon with minor 'bumps' along the way to cover immediate programs and some general jobs. We were pretty certain the 'Commies' were no longer a threat by 1965 and the public was pretty much done with 'space' as a priority long before that. The US problem was we had made the majority of our "program" dependent on "people" being up there, (and therefore trained NASA to believe that rather than "No Bucks, No Buck Rodgers" it was that bucks depended on their being a Buck involved) and then the Apollo-Shuttle gap showed that wasn't the case and in fact the general US public didn't care. They should have already understood the politicians didn't in fact care. But on top of all that NASA itself was unable and unwilling to face the problem that they weren't a national priority anymore and that funding would never come back to what it had been at the height of Apollo. And worst of all they had taken the "must have a crew" to the illogical extreme and ensured the ONE most important promise they'd made for the Shuttle was impossible to achieve! Even if they had managed to snare ALL US launch services, (and they'd finally convinced even the Air Force to accept this as needed) the STS was never going to be cheap enough or capable of supporting such a mission. Not without many more orbiters and facilitates and more importantly payloads that were never going to be affordable under the circumstances.

it wasn't that NASA didn't know this or understand it, all evidence points to that they didn't in fact care. Because "no one" would let the US Space Program die and the US Space Program was a MANNED space program and any time it fell short or had problems "someone" would step forward and pay, (just enough mind you) to fix the problem. And 'someday soon' the PTB would come to their senses and...

Which in both effect and outcome OTL renders an already marginally effective space program ineffective. And policy wise that's fine actually since obviously the rest of the worlds "space programs" are likely not even going to get to the level of your original 'rival' the Russians. And the damning thing is "they" are probably right since no nation can really afford a large space program so there is no likely competitive incentive and to be quite honest we've been 'exporting' our (and the Russian) paradigms to the point where there are probably enough 'paper-virus'* in the rest of the world space programs to ensure they won't ever be more cost effective than we are.

And going back to the point above there's really nobody who is interested enough, or can afford to do anything about it all. Those that care can't afford it, those that can afford it are limited in number and by definition they can't do more than a 'few' things and in the end they will always be limited by the general situation and worse will almost inevitably be competing with each other for a limited amount of work/resources/funds.

Can things change? Of course they can and we can and should hope and work towards making them better but keep in mind it can also get worse. Again, (sorry to be a broken record but...) as long as the general population feels there is nothing out "there" worth going they won't actively support a major effort to do so. As long as those who do see something out 'there' worth striving for both under-estimate the challenge and at the same time insist on only focusing on the narrow 'perfect' path as the way to do it there won't be enough concentrated capability to make the dream reality.

I only wish it had happened earlier... Which is likely why I hang out here more than NSF anymore :)

*"Paper Virus" was a short story I once read with the interesting premise that one could insert a "paper virus" into a knowledge base by "proving" a line of theory, (in the stories case a line of research which would eventually lead to discovering FTL travel) as a 'basic fact' so that the outcome would become 'common knowledge' and therefore less if not abandoned as a research line. In context? The US and Russia have been the 'experts' on space technology for decades now so our "experts" are sought out, hired and above all trusted to provide accurate and up-to-date knowledge of the subject matters they are "experts" in. For example I listened to a Space Show interview with the acknowledged "world expert" on space suit design who had just been hired by the Indian Space Agency to, (what else) come and direct their space suit design program. At one point he flat out stated that the ONLY possible "utility" space suits were the standard 'balloon' full pressure suit or a "hard" suit with hard sections joined by semi-flexible joints and this had been 'proven' to the extent that no one was designing anything other than varients of those two types. A caller pointed out the "Mechanical Counter-Pressure" (MCP) space suit and work done on the "Space Activity Suit" during the Apollo program. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_activity_suit) The expert then proceeded to run over the caller saying that MCP suit had never been officially tested, (false) the Space Activity Suit was a fraud, (false) and that no testing or design had ever been done in low pressure or vacuum, (false) and finally that no operational or working MCP suit had ever been built or used, (nothing short of an outright lie as EVERY Air Force in the 50s had operational and issued MCP flight suits in service) and that the concept was utterly unproven to work and therefore was somehow proven to NOT work by inference. When several more callers tried to point out some of these facts he dismissed them as believing fantasy stories and as an expert HE could definitely say the concept was unworkable even though he admitted to never having actually studied or investigated the concept. His main reason for not doing so? His actual expertise was in the design and construction not of the suit itself but of the liquid cooling garment worn underneath. And since that would not work on an MCP suit, (you actually use the bodies natural temperature regulation system and 'sweat' which works just fine to regulate the body temperature) then obviously the MCP design would never 'work' in real life... Don't think this is 'dangerous'? Contacting the majority of pressure suit makers will result in them telling you they will not work on or build a suit that is not a full-pressure design because they don't have the expertise or experience to do so. They refuse to discuss any MCP design. Private suit companies such as Orbital Outfitters will do the same as well telling you that MCP suits are not possible to make. This despite that fact that pure and hybrid MCP glove designs have 'won' every NASA glove design contest in the last decade and the MAJOR issue that NASA is paying the aforementioned suit designers to do it find a way to make them work with a standard pressure suit. (Hence the hybrid designs)

This is by far not the only case of such a paper-virus and it tends to be endemic BECAUSE everyone gets their advice and data from people who have inherent and often culturally supported bais' and conceptions and we're organizationally and culturally predicated to 'trusting' an expert's opinion as the truth.

Randy
 
The US problem was we had made the majority of our "program" dependent on "people" being up there, (and therefore trained NASA to believe that rather than "No Bucks, No Buck Rodgers" it was that bucks depended on their being a Buck involved) and then the Apollo-Shuttle gap showed that wasn't the case and in fact the general US public didn't care. They should have already understood the politicians didn't in fact care.

Yeah, I wonder how much funding a robot probe program could have sustained.

Since no country with manned space travel has ever given it up, we've never really tested the "no buck rodgers" thesis.

it wasn't that NASA didn't know this or understand it, all evidence points to that they didn't in fact care. Because "no one" would let the US Space Program die and the US Space Program was a MANNED space program and any time it fell short or had problems "someone" would step forward and pay, (just enough mind you) to fix the problem. And 'someday soon' the PTB would come to their senses and...

Without the (successful) Shuttle, what could NASA do? They'd be stuck with Earth orbit for their manned program, and only robots would go any further. The only way to get a "better than Apollo" follow-up for NASA would be to seriously drive down launch costs. I do wonder how many people let their thinking be distorted by the desire to go onto better things...

The thing that makes me sad is there were strong voices for more realistic approaches...

Though I must say, all this focus on NASA, I think it misses the general malaise in US aerospace. NASA got alot of bad habits from the programs it inherited from the USAF and the non-NASA parts of US aerospace since the 80s have generally been a bit of a train wreck as far as I can tell.

NASA's budget started collapsing before we set foot on the Moon with minor 'bumps' along the way to cover immediate programs and some general jobs.

I suppose, I don't really see the collapse after the mid 60s as a "collapse", only the ending of a temporary state. To me it seems the post Cold War NASA budgets have been on a very different level from the "normal" level of non-Apollo budget - at least in terms of % of Federal budget spent on NASA.

And the damning thing is "they" are probably right since no nation can really afford a large space program so there is no likely competitive incentive and to be quite honest we've been 'exporting' our (and the Russian) paradigms to the point where there are probably enough 'paper-virus'* in the rest of the world space programs to ensure they won't ever be more cost effective than we are.

I like the "paper virus" idea.

fasquardon
 
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Yeah, I wonder how much funding a robot probe program could have sustained.

One major advocate of robot over human would say "billions and billions" more I'd suspect :)

Since no country with manned space travel has ever given it up, we've never really tested the "no buck rodgers" thesis.

Actually pretty much everyone has 'backed-off' manned flight with even the Chinese reducing manned planning in favor of robotic but really both the US and Russian probably have to much invested to drop it too much more.

Without the (successful) Shuttle, what could NASA do? They'd be stuck with Earth orbit for their manned program, and only robots would go any further. The only way to get a "better than Apollo" follow-up for NASA would be to seriously drive down launch costs. I do wonder how many people let their thinking be distorted by the desire to go onto better things...

The thing was we tried to 'go-back' and do things right but there was not enough budget and too much expectation. People inside and outside of NASA believed that since they had gone to the Moon in under a decade from just about zero presence in Space they could "simply" go back and do it again 'right' this time. The problem there is once it became rather clear that things were neither going to be simple or cheap no one seemed willing to admit they may not have been as ready to do this as they thought. Yet there was that whole "you went to the Moon in under a decade" thing hanging there which was obviously a 'minimum' expectation and measure of success that no one could ignore. Quite obviously, (and we all are aware it was actually supposed to be the main 'selling point' of the Shuttle) lowering the cost of access was going to be THE primary driver required to be addressed but from the start there's the whole "Apollo" and "keeping the centers open" aspect that works directly against that metric. Toss in every study saying you need a lot of flights to help drive down the cost and the obvious lack thereof being supported and you're hard up against a set of mutually exclusive parameters to define what comes next. Hell yes you'd tend to wish things were a certain way even if there was no evidence or support for that outcome.

The thing that makes me sad is there were strong voices for more realistic approaches...

But they weren't another "Apollo" and they didn't cover all the 'bases' needed so...
(And yes it makes me very sad as well)

Though I must say, all this focus on NASA, I think it misses the general malaise in US aerospace. NASA got alot of bad habits from the programs it inherited from the USAF and the non-NASA parts of US aerospace since the 80s have generally been a bit of a train wreck as far as I can tell.

Oh I'm sorry if I don't appear to blame the HECK out of the USAF for a majority of the issues because frankly I do. Very much so :) Frankly they are the main cause of the majority of the issues because the way they set up and ran the USAF Missile Program. While I fully understand 'why' it happened the way it did both the way the Air Force was forced to set up its industry links and flow and how it was managed pretty much were the blueprint and basis of the Apollo program for NASA. Unlike the AF missile program sustainment and cost effectiveness never came about in the Apollo program even though the potential was there. The 'waste-anything-but-time' paradigm without that focus on long-term sustainability and eventual cost-effectiveness was baked into Apollo from the day the Lunar goal was announced and the open spigots on spending and resources that followed didn't encourage or reward long term thinking or planning either. And American-aerospace was both used to the glut of government largess and facing uncertain futures over the amount of industrial support that would be available overall as the 50s ran down. The late 40s saw the 'bomber-boom' followed almost immediately with an early 50s 'missile-boom' and overall increased military spending, (specifically the Air Force but Naval and Army aviation surged too) which all segued into the Space Race and suddenly everything began to grind to a halt in the mid-60s as all the previous systems went into service and the ramp-ups and budget monies dried up.

And what followed was obviously going to be far less able to sustain and support the multiple companies and support systems that were going to be competing for what was left. There's a specific and very "logical" reason Nixon wanted a "new" NASA program that would employ as much West Coast Aerospace as possible and why the Shuttle turned out the way it did. It in no way 'helped' things that American Aerospace was claiming that without such they'd all go out of business and THEN who would build your next generation military systems? This still goes on today and frankly the "Congressional-Military-Industrial Complex" is just as focused on keeping the three players going over actually meeting requirements and cost goals as they were then. The question still remains of how do you use the system to get what you need rather than what they want to sell you but that's why it's always been 'buyer beware' though right? :)

I suppose, I don't really see the collapse after the mid 60s as a "collapse", only the ending of a temporary state. To me it seems the post Cold War NASA budgets have been on a very different level from the "normal" level of non-Apollo budget - at least in terms of % of Federal budget spent on NASA.

Well it was as the "Apollo" levels were always a very huge aberration to the norm. The post-Cold War budget has been almost more stable than the post-Apollo budget even with the 'free-fall' period and I suspect it's because the amount of political 'aerospace' pork has mostly stabilized itself. Once ULA organized itself the 'competition' pretty much went away till SpaceX came along.

I like the "paper virus" idea.

I do to and it's very apt as an analogy to paradigms and mindsets causing issues with research and development. "Common sense" and "common knowledge" are actually very good things as they keep you from repeating the same mistakes but on the same level it can be very oppressive towards new ideas and methods. It's a balancing act and far to often its used to 'weight' the scale towards an predetermined outcome rather than cutting off dead ends.

Randy
 
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