AHC: A better post-Shuttle rocket program

ACES right? (First proposed in 2004 IIRC) Since its development and operation were the ‘key’ point of the EELV Phase 1 (heavy) development plan (found here:https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26277.0;attach=325726;sess=0) I’d say yes to a point with the proviso that any mention of the possible use as a ‘lander’ is tightly controlled and downplayed :) Let’s face it, as an integral part of the EELV “heavy” lift system it’s one thing but it will be quite clear that ACES is capable of SO much more that it might be understood as a big danger to Congressional control of NASA’s future planning. Arguably it might be safer to go with more advanced Centaur designs (basis for ACES but obviously you can simply improve Centaur without getting ACES) which would be less capable in the long run but I think it can be sold as long as its need for an upper stage is the main point being made.

Ohhh, very interesting.

Hmmmmm.

Hmmmmmmmmm.

I am seeing some options for a fun TL here.

Anyone have any thoughts what it would do to the Russian program if the US is sending crew up to the ISS on Orion capsules on top of Atlas V heavy rockets? Given the capacity of the Orion, I could see them pulling alot of seats from Soyuz.

That possibility was actually why both the DoD and NASA initially wanted to ‘retain’ more than one LV option. With NASA actively supporting the Atlas as “its” LV of choice for manned launch then there is going to be much more sustained pressure to ‘solve’ the issue on both sides I’d think. Russia doesn’t have the same ‘pull’ TTL because NASA can, (and probably will for the short-term) fall back on the Delta-IV but as the DoD is using it as their primary launch vehicle I can see more pressure for ULA to begin production in the US. (Specifically since it IS the “primary” LV for the civilian NASA TTL) Considering they (NASA) would require more Atlas V’s (hence RD-180s as you mention) than were needed OTL the whole ‘licensing’ issue would probably have come up earlier I’d think. Especially when/if the Atlas V Heavy comes on-line.

I'd thought that a US company already had the license to build a RD-180 factory in the US, but cost meant that it was never worthwhile?

Followed by several iterations of various "External Tank Space Stations" (http://www.astronautix.com/s/stsexternaltankstation.html) which never got much official NASA interest due to both political and NIH (mostly because they wanted a REAL Space Station and nothing less which hearkens back to we want a REAL Space Shuttle and nothing less and look where that got them...) but at least they allowed both internal and external "plausibility checks" on the concept. (And then went and ensured the tank could not physically handle such a conversion no less)

I wonder if an ET-derived dry workshop could be launched on a side-mound SDHLV?

As one who has been involved in the aerospace world longer than most, my hat is off to the contributors to this thread!

Thanks! Dynasoar

I'm curious what we did?

fasquardon
 
Anyone have any thoughts what it would do to the Russian program if the US is sending crew up to the ISS on Orion capsules on top of Atlas V heavy rockets? Given the capacity of the Orion, I could see them pulling a lot of seats from Soyuz.
It would not be good. The state of the Russian space industry was discussed in the Space Exploration thread a few months back.

Grim days for the Russian space program, Eric Berger reports - interesting, because the characterization is not his, but that of one of Russia's best known space editors.

Russian space editor Andrei Borisov has captured the fading zeitgeist of the Russian space program in a lengthy article on the new leader of Roscosmos, Dmitry Rogozin, and the changes he has proposed. "The 'Russian Space' Rogozin is trying to create reminds one of the Dark Ages in Europe," Borisov writes on Lenta.Ru, where he serves as editor of science and technology. "In it, there is no place for modernization, there is only the mission of survival."

The article catalogs current Russian efforts to develop newer, competitive rockets and modern spacecraft. All of these efforts, Borisov finds, are behind schedule, outdated, or already non-competitive.

Is Rogozin taking a very troubled space program and actually making it worse?

You can read the original article from Lenta.ru that Ars quotes here via Google Translate, there was also a similar article from a month or two earlier that they linked to in the sidebar.


I'd thought that a US company already had the license to build a RD-180 factory in the US, but cost meant that it was never worthwhile?
A quick search suggests that Pratt & Whitney hold a license to produce them that runs until 2030, but as you say they seem to have decided that it wouldn't be commercially viable. That's spending their own money of course. I could see one of the usual suspects in Congress introducing an amendment to award them a grant to build a new plant under the argument that if the government is stopping them from doing business thanks to legislation its passed then it owes them fair recompense, especially if they were to site it in say Decatur or Huntsville. I don't know if there would be royalties due but that wouldn't be a barrier since IIRC the Treasury has a department for handling the seized assets of people or countries which are under sanction by the US, they could just send the payments to them and be legally in the clear.
 
If we posit that NASA is more committed to the ISS in this TL, are there any interesting possibilities for how the ISS itself could develop? Expansions that were never launched? Experiments that never got enough support?

Artificial gravity experiments launched via SDHLV maybe?

fasquardon
 
With so much going wrong, it's easy to imagine how things might have gone better. I am curious how much better people can see it going though.

The problem is inexpensive and regular access to space. I would put forth a National Space Highway Act where the goal would be to launch one rocket per week. There would be three prime contractors, the winning bid would get half (26 launches), the second and third place would get 13 launches each. The contract would be rebid every other year.

The rocket much have a minimum payload of 20,000 kg. The emphasis is on a regular and reliable launch schedule. If there is no payload that week the launch still occurs with a mass simulator. Obviously "empty" flights can be used for development.

The manned space program will be designed around this system. Anything heavier will be have to be designed to assembled or stored in orbit. I would push for managing it like the Antarctica science program. But in order for that to work there has to be hardware to purchase. So likely a version of Orion would be initiated although if this program can be initiated ITL then having a fully funded Commerical Crew could happen as well.

The individual NASA centers would be involved with building stuff to put on these rockets. Marshalls role shift to be more R&D. Not to produce finished systems but to fly experimental engines and equipment to push the state of the art.

However SpaceX would upend this system. Their rocket is so inexpensive that while they certainly could be the prime contractor for the National Space Highway. the NSH would just be an added cost on top of what they would be charging. Maybe scaled back to once or twice a month focusing on science both unmanned and manned.

Or it may be it will allow SpaceX to be cheaper still by ramping up production beyond what it is now.
 
The problem is inexpensive and regular access to space. I would put forth a National Space Highway Act where the goal would be to launch one rocket per week. There would be three prime contractors, the winning bid would get half (26 launches), the second and third place would get 13 launches each. The contract would be rebid every other year.

The rocket much have a minimum payload of 20,000 kg. The emphasis is on a regular and reliable launch schedule. If there is no payload that week the launch still occurs with a mass simulator. Obviously "empty" flights can be used for development.

The manned space program will be designed around this system. Anything heavier will be have to be designed to assembled or stored in orbit. I would push for managing it like the Antarctica science program. But in order for that to work there has to be hardware to purchase. So likely a version of Orion would be initiated although if this program can be initiated ITL then having a fully funded Commerical Crew could happen as well.

The individual NASA centers would be involved with building stuff to put on these rockets. Marshalls role shift to be more R&D. Not to produce finished systems but to fly experimental engines and equipment to push the state of the art.

However SpaceX would upend this system. Their rocket is so inexpensive that while they certainly could be the prime contractor for the National Space Highway. the NSH would just be an added cost on top of what they would be charging. Maybe scaled back to once or twice a month focusing on science both unmanned and manned.

Or it may be it will allow SpaceX to be cheaper still by ramping up production beyond what it is now.

An interesting idea, however i can see two problems:
1. The prime contractor will quickly build up better economies of scale over the other entrants and would likely end up being the prime by default for the subsequent years.
2. Who pays for the empty launches? If its government funded how do you stop it being a target for attacks on wasteful spending?
 
2. Who pays for the empty launches? If its government funded how do you stop it being a target for attacks on wasteful spending
There should be no need for empty launches. Extra fuel, maybe build a tank farm, extra supplies for the space station, finding liw value cargo, like student satellites that couldn't afford a launch of their own...
 
An interesting idea, however i can see two problems:
1. The prime contractor will quickly build up better economies of scale over the other entrants and would likely end up being the prime by default for the subsequent years.

It is a balancing act. If this was inaugurated as the "plan" in the wake of the announcement of the demise of the space shuttle. The initial roster of vendor would have been upended by the achievements of SpaceX and the other "New" space companies a few years later.

The focus here is on developing operational experience hence the once a week launch tempo. That launching often will quickly expose inefficiencies and promote the development of the "little" things that when added up make for major changes in reliability and cost. Remember SpaceX changed more than figuring out how to land the first stage. They tweaked and altered dozens of things that were traditionally done to build a low cost launcher.


2. Who pays for the empty launches?
The same as the interstate highway system, a fee or tax on various other elements of the systems. For the highways a primary source of funding is the tax on gasoline. I realize this part of the proposal is a bit vague.

If its government funded how do you stop it being a target for attacks on wasteful spending?

1) The contracts are fixed fees and milestone based.
2) The ground based installation are not going to be shut down. The only way to make them pay is by frequent launches so their cost is divided among many launches.
3) The empty launches are not unlike a highway at 4 am or when the interstate was first built. The full capacity of the system wasn't used until people started to take advantage of it. That takes time. The empty launches are also opportunities to experiment. Finally the launch tempo can be adjusted up or down to suit its actual use. Even if it was made less frequent the lesson learned from trying to maintain a once a week tempo would benefit a twice a week (more likely) or a once a month launch cadence.

I think the biggest downside will be the fact that in hindsight SpaceX and Blue Origins will drive cost down so low that the goal of the Space Highway System would have been achieve anyway. That if this was done in a ATL that it would just accelerated SpaceX. First as a teritary contractor, then primary, and then "wait SpaceX and its competitor can do this on their own."

In that case I would advocate reducing the launch tempo and use it as the primary of supporting manned and unmanned exploration & R&D. Similar to the NSF contracting or buying ships and planes to support the Antarctic program. But open to all who want to try to put something in space for a nominal fee.
 
There should be no need for empty launches. Extra fuel, maybe build a tank farm, extra supplies for the space station, finding liw value cargo, like student satellites that couldn't afford a launch of their own...

Depends on how quickly people can affordably build payloads between the announcement of the system and its first launch. But yes the "empty" launches can be loaded up with all kinds of things to support activity in space if it is just a bunch of cubesats.
 
SSTO, high-orbit space station (maybe even Lagrange), moon base with possible He3 extraction, probes to Europa.

Forget the frigging "man on Mars" crap. It's killing everything space-related; it's another dead end Moon race.
 
Well, this is a hard question for me to answer, since being Post-STS means, essentially, that there are no particularly good options open to NASA.

The DIRECT option, as I see it, was the only option that had a realistic chance of surviving the early 2000's once STS was forced into retirement. This would be chiefly due to having far greater commonality with STS - same diameter and about length (base and top would have to be redesigned though) plus the already-known 4-seg ATK SRB - than any other that I know of - save for Sidemount. While sidestepping some of the worst disadvantages of STS - mainly being above the Foam and the ability to have Launch Escape at all times IIRC.

Combined with what should be low Development Cost - albeit at the penalty of High Operational Costs AFAIK - and time, and being either ready or close to ready by the time of Augustine IOTL could well make cancellation next-to-impossible.

After all, at this point in time, 2009/2011, Commercial Launch Providers were still rather unknown with not much reputation to their names, so suspicion regarding their ability to deliver was to me justified at the time.

The other key problem with this being, DIRECT is optimised for super-heavy-lift and BEO. So what do you use for medium-lift LEO?

Delta-IV would need its RS-68 engines to undergo some substantial reworking to be fit for Manned Flights, given they release a lot of H2 prior to ignition IIRC. While Atlas V has the issue of the Russian-Built RD-180.

And of course, the biggest item in the room. What to do with all this? Where? When?

Really appears to me to be the single-greatest headache NASA is facing. No serious missions where such a capability is needed, and no serious funding for them anyway.
 
Fasquadron wrote:
I am seeing some options for a fun TL here.

Oh assuredly :) After all, how much “fun” can we have when the main ‘gatekeeper’ is NASA ambition rather than having to beg for money and/or permission to do something

Anyone have any thoughts what it would do to the Russian program if the US is sending crew up to the ISS on Orion capsules on top of Atlas V heavy rockets? Given the capacity of the Orion, I could see them pulling alot of seats from Soyuz.

Considering Orion from the start was to carry anywhere from 4 to 6 astronauts and Soyuz is maxed out at 3 it would have likely forced a choice of falling behind even further or spending the necessary effort to build a replacement. As Simon noted that’s not been easy or successful OTL but there’s literally been no real pressure to replace Soyuz.

I'd thought that a US company already had the license to build a RD-180 factory in the US, but cost meant that it was never worthwhile?

As Simon notes P&W as long as they had to spend their own money never considered it “worth” the costs to do. Actually having a NASA launch contract in-hand puts a different face on the matter. The tricky part is that Congress had been aiming at putting the Atlas V out of ‘business’ by forcing the DoD down-select to the Delta-IV LV. This effectively removed the Delta-IV from commercial operations on anything but a very limited basis and frankly the Atlas V already had sufficient commercial interest and intent to survive not getting the DoD contracts. Having NASA use the Atlas-V means somewhere along the line Congress gives up that little power-play so it would be rather straight forward to give ‘incentives’ to P&W to build such an engine plant TTL.

I wonder if an ET-derived dry workshop could be launched on a side-mound SDHLV?

Yes it could there were several proposals from various places for such even after NASA adopted the light-weight tanks and was pretty clear they were not going to consider using the ET in OTL. (http://ssi.org/reading/ssi-report-on-tank-applications/) In fact they have ‘changed’ their mind since recent proposals to use or base things like the DSH on upper stage tanks, shrouds or such. (https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120000865.pdf) I’m having issues finding more examples to link to but I know they used to be quite a few around. (http://yawfle.com/article/space/2017/jun/nasas-wet-workshop-concept-revived)

The one thing to keep in mind though is something most ET-utilization advocates miss: If you use the ET yes you get huge volume for a relatively low cost but you that also means you’re not buying somebody else’s modules. The SSI report above notes that NASA was “interested” in ET-utilization because they were often, (once actually) asked by Congress why they didn’t use ET’s on-orbit. (No doubt pushed by organizations like SSI to ask NASA such a question, note they did this with “Space Colonization” as well. It is interesting to note that once Congress was forced to ask NASA these questions “NASA” officially lost interest in the concepts shortly after due to lack of funds or support… From Congress. Points to ponder eh? :) )

In fact in its answer NASA noted the high man-hours required, (as astronaut pay scales) the required materials and resource delivery issues to make such a ‘vessel’ both pressure tight and livable and that such effort would fully eliminate any need for Boeing or LM built space station modules. Boeing and LM took the ‘numbers’ (man-hours, on-orbit construction difficulty and others) added a ‘conservative’ safety factor, (OMG the ET will be riddled by space debris like a machine gun while the astronauts will glow in the dark from cosmic radiation) and submitted to NASA (and Congress) several reports noting how much better a deal simply buying pre-made modules would be. (Boeing pretty much recycled their report changing the ET to TransHab to show how much safer and more cost-effective their modules were to the TransHab for justification in having NASA shut that program down) I probably don’t have to point out, (but will :) ) that the ability to do on-orbit construction and such directly translates into expanded utilization of on-orbit materials and systems such that if you can outfit and fully utilized a Shuttle ET on-orbit then something like building a ‘lander’ out of the ET Oxygen tank becomes rather straight forward.

If we posit that NASA is more committed to the ISS in this TL, are there any interesting possibilities for how the ISS itself could develop? Expansions that were never launched? Experiments that never got enough support?

Artificial gravity experiments launched via SDHLV maybe?

Keep in mind there has to be more than just NASA interest but Congressional as well. You need to have Congress support the higher interest in such a way as to keep them supporting more than just regular resupply/crew-rotation flights after all. As for ‘interesting’ possibilities there has always been interest in adding a centrifuge to the station. However the downside is it will greatly increase the vibrations of the station rendering things like protein crystal growth impossible. In fact much of the ‘industrial’ research possibilities of the ISS have been restricted or reduced due to the issues of vibration, movement and frankly the presence of humans on-board. Supporting some type of ‘free-flyer’ or tethered modules has been suggested to open these avenues of research back up but so far, (OTL) there has been little interest

I suppose the main question then becomes would it be better to suppose/support moving beyond ‘just’ the ISS as a single Earth Orbiting Space Station?

Randy
 
Robertsconley wrote:
The problem is inexpensive and regular access to space.

This and very much this. It is literally the most straight forward and obvious way to open up orbital and space utilization but it is also the least addressed issue. Part of the problem is the numerous “obvious” ways to move forward all of which compete with and tear down each other as the resources to support the development and testing of such methods is so few and far between.

And that of course includes the aerospace manufacturers who have a vested interest in keeping production low and costs high or folks like SpaceX who while managing to lower costs at the same time have little or no interest in “surface-to-orbit” and are openly planning no tossing it aside once the ‘new’ system arrives.

THE main problem is increased access that is both inexpensive and capable of a regular and steady schedule does not mean that either the payloads or business will in fact be there to support it.

I would put forth a National Space Highway Act where the goal would be to launch one rocket per week. There would be three prime contractors, the winning bid would get half (26 launches), the second and third place would get 13 launches each. The contract would be rebid every other year.

The rocket much have a minimum payload of 20,000 kg. The emphasis is on a regular and reliable launch schedule. If there is no payload that week the launch still occurs with a mass simulator. Obviously "empty" flights can be used for development.

As I noted this has been proposed before :)

The problem with such a ‘government’ program is that it in fact does tend to focus on ‘current’ systems to the exclusion of future capability and that’s a real issue. See even if proposed in the early 90s, (per “Rocket-A-Day”) it does not really give incentives for things like re-usability or manned systems. It’s actually the opposite since with a high flight rate expendable launch vehicles are in fact very cost effective. Even dropping it back to the Shuttle retirement (2011) while SpaceX was getting some government contracts they didn’t’ successfully recover a booster till 2015 and it did NOT affect their ‘pricing’ as of yet. Most of what you seek to accomplish in fact has been driven by the market more than government regulation or contracting.

United Launch Alliance came about because the two biggest launch providers, (LM and Boeing) realized that duplication of effort and maintaining competing launch crews and infrastructure wasn’t cost effective. This significantly reduced the upfront costs of each launch and utilized the existing infrastructure and systems more efficiently over more launches.

There is actually a reason we don’t see ‘empty’ launches done just to keep the flight rate high. Even if there was ‘someone’ to pay for the whole process, (the government in this case) that launch would then put up an ‘empty’ satellite which would eventually devolve into either orbital debris or a reentry hazard. (In fact IIRC by international agreement any such ‘simulated’ launch must include the means and planning to deorbit the mass in a safe manner in a minimum number of orbits)

Extra propellant? Extra supplies for the ISS? Low value (CubeSats) cargo? Sorry none of this is a ‘viable’ use of the launch capacity except the last and the “20,000kg/44,000lbs” payload is so vastly over capacity that ONE (1) launch could fly all the worlds Cubesats for several years! Of the others if one tried to establish a ‘propellant depot’ you face the issue of safety, (again it might eventually explode and spread debris on-orbit) access, (who and when especially since there is no user or capability at the time and no incentive to create any) and control (it has to be constantly monitored and adjusted) and most importantly what propellants and how are they used or replaced?

In other words it a “Chicken-or-Egg” scenario with no utility until after the infrastructure and capability to utilize it exists it has no reason to exist.

And let me address the “800-pound-gorilla” in the room: A NSHA would require that the “space highway” existed AND had one or more destinations along the way to help fund it through supporting taxes and costs. There isn’t one and building a ‘highway’ to space does not create that infrastructure from thin air. Keep in mind that the only reason to put people into space it to deliver them to the ISS and back. There is really no ‘tourism’ market or services currently that can justify creating such a ‘highway’ to support manned operations and unmanned operations are a lot different with vastly different requirements so that utilization of the same “highway” is unlikely at best.

One could argue with using the ‘empty’ flights to fly tourists but this ignores the large and complex requirements needed to fly tourists which precludes just ‘sticking’ a flight module on an empty rocket. (While I’d applaud designing the “manned” system around the required launch vehicle the problem is that “man-rating” IS actually a thing and doing so requires changes to allow safe and stable operation that in fact are not always compatible with unmanned launch vehicles. SpaceX has already run into this problem as not every Falcon-9 booster is actually ‘man-rated’ and it is actually questionable if their recoverable boosters would make that grade) In fact space tourism as a factor suffers from that same lack of destinations and or infrastructure but there is no incentive to set up anything or offer alternatives. Nor does the NSHA offer anything to promote either which is another portion that requires both inclusion and details.

I keep harping on this point but it IS a major point in that space travel is unlike any other transportation system we’ve ever had ON Earth and trying to apply Earth analogs will invariably fail until and unless it IS more similar to our Earth based transportation systems. In other words without multiple destinations with established infrastructure, populations, trade and resources that NEED an actual transportation system, space travel will remain more about individual and focused transport rather than mass transport.

At this moment THE most important aspect that needs to be focused on is affordable, economic, reliable and safe transportation from Earth’s surface to Low Earth Orbit. What system or design can best meet those goals is far from fixed or even very clear at the moment for good reason. We haven’t really tried yet. We could argue that we’ve had several attempts which is true though it needs to be noted none of them have been as ‘serious’ or ‘focused’ as is probably needed. SpaceX can be argued to have come close but they themselves admit that they are not focused on or even really care about ‘EtO” operations beyond financing their long term goal of going to Mars. Blue Origin on the other hand IS focused on EtO but if also fixated on going ‘big’ rather than what might be more economical and frankly they are currently more focused on engine development than vehicle development. And in the end neither approach may in fact be the most likely or economical.

“SSTO” (yes that was you Hammerbolt :) ) is often suggested as THE means of breaking into the economics of regular access to space but being at all realistic, and again pointing out how space launch is NOT like Earth transportation, no rocket launch system (or arguably hybrid system) is anywhere near being as simple and effective as our Earth bound “gas-n-go” systems. And it’s not likely to be given the requirements which NO Earth bound system even approximates!

NOTHING we’ve done suggests that SSTO will be any different and in fact it is obvious that is will be far less capable and likely more expensive and complex given the work we’ve done on the concept so far. TSTO or even 1.5STO is far more likely to be more economical and will have more capability. (I’m actually including systems like Skylon in the latter category even though they consistently push for SSTO as a baseline)

But the key point is we need to try different systems and avoid making hard-and-fast “rules” that themselves limit or degrade the number of possible means of achieving the overall rather than certain specific goals. I can’t deliver 20,000kg/44,000lbs to the ISS once a week but I can deliver 4,536kg/10,000lbs (and two crew members) to the ISS twice a week with a fully reusable launch system. Heck I can probably make it three times a week with another spaceplane and two more booster pods. But I can’t ‘compete’ with ULA who CAN launch Delta-IV’s and Atlas-V’s once a week to the ISS with over 20,000kg/44,000lbs per trip at four times the cost because THEY meet the criteria and I don’t…

Randy
 
Hammerbolt wrote:

Why? They are inefficient, complex and arguably not very economical after all. Why not consider other options?

high-orbit space station (maybe even Lagrange),

This requires in-space infrastructure to support and what’s its purpose or requirement? (There are several I’m just seeing if this is more than just a simple list of ‘goals’ :) )

moon base with possible He3 extraction,

Same though more so since it would require quite a bit of throughput in both directions. Needs a lot of surface infrastructure as well.

probes to Europa.

That’s a possible SLS payload of course, provided it ever flies. What do you want it to do and why only Europa?

Forget the frigging "man on Mars" crap. It's killing everything space-related; it's another dead end Moon race.

Though I somewhat ‘agree’ with the sentiment let me use this as a point of departure from (what I suspect at least) the probably meaning of this…

Yes let up most definitely forget the “Man” on anything crap. We don’t after all NEED people for any of this and in fact we get a better economics and lower complexity costs if we forget “people” in this whole set up.

An automated Single Stage To Orbit vehicle, (Great Grandson of Mockingbird?) goes from Earth to LEO and rendezvous with an automated orbital factory. Maybe it’s delivering some vital supply the station can’t make for itself, maybe its picking up an Earth delivery though honestly that can be done vastly cheaper, or maybe it’s simply a normal supply run for stuff the station can’t get from the Moon or elsewhere. Meanwhile a deep-space tug is pushing outbound using its Solar Electric Propulsion (SEP) system headed for Lagrange One automated orbital transfer station. Sure it will take a couple of months to get there and a similar time to get back but who cares? It’s not like it has fragile people onboard who can’t spend two weeks ‘cruising’ through the Van Allan belts and besides the SEP is efficient enough it can carry six round trips worth of propellant along. Meanwhile out at the automated L1 station they are preparing to receive the Lunar Resources tug which is coming around from L2 where the automated LOX/AL ‘fast’ transports dock and they catch the mass driver launched ‘packets’ of materials which all go to making up that cargo pod of resources the L2/L1 tug moves around. Meanwhile down on the surface the automated Moonbase is controlling several automated extraction and transportation systems and a couple of mass driver delivery systems which are gathering and processing Lunar regolith to get the obviously very expensive and rare resource that is the purpose behind all this effort. And even so, (even if its He3 mind you) the whole operation is barely making a profit. Think about how in the red we’d be if there were people here to support as well!

Now me, I approach this whole question from the other end actually. (Then again I’m a “Millennial Project” brat who’s whole PLAN is to get people into space. We’ll figure out what we can do with them once they are there :) ) People on the Moon, people on Mars, (eventually, note it’s not my first choice though), people living in the clouds of Venus, on the Moons of Jupiter and Saturn, people in the asteroid belt, in the Kuiper Belt and beyond.

Don’t let anyone kid you, People on Mars or the Moon by themselves even in a ‘self-sustaining’ colony are not an ‘insurance policy’ for the Human race. They are simply witness’ and record keepers for how we died before they themselves end up succumbing to inevitable extinction. Humans have survived “extinction” events before only because we had a robust and friendly planet to live on while clawing our way back to viability. NOWHERE in the Solar System can that be said OFF Earth! Now robust off Earth colonies and bases, large and deep interplanetary transportation network and most likely causes of an ELE are highly mitigated anyway and you have the depth to recover from those that are not.

And all this depends on economic, reliable and efficient access to Low Earth Orbit from the surface of Earth.

Which arguably we’re not talking about here because any ‘post-Shuttle’ system is likely mired in Earthly concerns so we have to take the good with the bad.

Randy
 
Robertsconley wrote:
3) The empty launches are not unlike a highway at 4 am or when the interstate was first built. The full capacity of the system wasn't used until people started to take advantage of it. That takes time. The empty launches are also opportunities to experiment.

They are VERY ‘unlike’ a highway at 4am or a newly built interstate because there WAS no “previous” destination or trade route that can now be accessed at a lower price. That’s my main point. It’s like saying that we can lower the price of delivering people and cargo to the middle of the Atlantic ocean and return them to New York because we’re building a new passenger ship. Not to London or Paris because those places don’t exist there is only New York and the ocean. Both your pool of potential cargo and passengers has just been reduced significantly.

But it’s only an imperfect analogy because the differences even between the middle of the Atlantic ocean and space are vast. A more simple and accurate way of looking at it is that unlike anything we've had actual experience with Space does not have ANY of the draws or supports that Earthy transportation has had so it would be prudent to NOT try and force such experiences onto the unique aspects of space travel. Even Antarctic transportation does not 'work' as an analog because you did not initially require having high performance aircraft to even REACH the continent and conditions there are VASTLY more benign than anywhere in space.

For anything like this to work you FIRST have to have an already existing market, transportation system AND an incentive to reduce the cost of access by a large margin for cargo and people who are NOT currently serviced by either system! Right now the ‘system’ and ‘market’ exist to service GEO satellites with some LEO satellites thrown in and a POSSIBLE LEO satellite constellation market that is VERY theoretical no matter what Elon Musk thinks.

There is no market for hundreds let alone dozens of people in LEO and there might never be even with a significant price drop! Because the majority of people who are willing to pay anything at all to go into space gets smaller the less you have destinations or activities for them to do while they are there. Even suborbital “travel” is based more on a two-week stay in a luxury resort hotel with all of maybe two days spent ‘training’ for and experiencing the “flight”. Take that away and the number of people willing to pay the prices asked drops to nothing rather rapidly and the various ‘tourism’ agencies are well aware of this fact.

I think the biggest downside will be the fact that in hindsight SpaceX and Blue Origins will drive cost down so low that the goal of the Space Highway System would have been achieve anyway. That if this was done in a ATL that it would just accelerated SpaceX. First as a tertiary contractor, then primary, and then "wait SpaceX and its competitor can do this on their own."

This is not a ‘given’ either in OTL or an ATL because there are more factors involved that “just” cost of a launch.

SpaceX has in theory dropped the price to both LEO and GEO by a large margin but you’ll note it has not put ULA. Boeing or LM out of the market. They still have plenty of buyers so quite obviously lower cost is not the only factor. One factor is that the Falcon-9 in fact cannot support the majority of GEO satellite customers’ requirements, which is why the Falcon Heavy was so important. But the Falcon Heavy does not in fact reduce the cost much over “medium” lift versions of the Delta-IV or Atlas-V and the latter can simply add a more powerful upper stage or more SRBs for launch boost whereas both the Falcon-9 and Falcon Heavy are not able to offer that option.

Note that last because it is not like SpaceX is unaware of this issue and in fact have stated they do not in fact CARE to address this issue. What they offer is ‘good-enough’ for their purposes and customers can take it or leave it. The results are more mixed than simple economics would indicate BECAUSE the customers in fact DO have options and are willing to use them over SpaceX.

Similarly while ULA is looking to use Blue Origin engines neither LM or Boeing, (nor anyone else) are rushing to change the way they do business because quite simply it remains to be seen if SpaceX or any of the “New Space” groups will be any more or less successful than the PREVIOUS “New Space” groups. If it comes down to it they are well aware of what they do and do not need to change to remain competitive and if history has shown them anything it is ‘fads’ come and go but more conservative actions tend to have the longest lasting effect.

What most people don’t seem to understand is while ULA/LM/Boeing launch vehicles cost more they have a longer and deeper history and service record to back that up. SpaceX is nowhere near there and Blue Origin is even further behind. (One reason BO is partnered with ULA in fact is to allow them to ‘ride’ some of the former's reputation) And, especially in SpaceX’s case, actually ‘servicing’ the customer base is a secondary priority and they are very upfront about it which also does not draw them as many customers as simple ‘economics’ might suggest.

Recall that point above about the Falcon-9 not being able to service the majority of the GEO customer base? Why? Because the Falcon-9 Upper Stage is a very marginal stage due to its propellants. RP1/LOX is dense, only mildly cryogenic and has a horrible ISP for an upper stage. SpaceX is aware of this and refuses to do anything about it. Both Falcon 9 stages are designed and built for low cost and ease of operation, which fits SpaceX’s business model but comes with the drawback of forgoing a large segment of the GEO market. Arguably, (and this IS SpaceX’s argument) customers can use the Falcon Heavy for only a small additional price over that of the other GEO launchers but in fact the Falcon Heavy has a bit TOO much performance due to its size. It is also not cheaper to launch and until recently was an unproven launcher which further restricted its customer draw. Even though its flown once it still isn’t as attractive to customers as one might think.

Of course Hydrogen and LOX are the premier upper stage propellants but are bulky and expensive both to use and to build for and SpaceX has neither the experience nor the desire to build such a stage. Next would be Liquid Methane and LOX which is in fact a propellant mix they are working towards with the Raptor engine series but we should note that they have no plans of building a “mini-Raptor” for use on the Falcon-9 stage so the use of those propellants is unlikely. (I will note there have been mentions of such a stage and/or engine but they seem to be fan-based and not actual SpaceX discussions but that could have changed since the last time I visited the subject but given their focus on the BFR and admitted lack of interest in upgrading the Falcon 9 it is doubtful) Even the rather ‘simple’ option of cryogenic propane, (propane chilled to LOX temperatures which is then dense enough to use standard RP1 tanks with LOX insulation) has not been considered due to the need to design, build and qualify an engine capable of using it. In essence SpaceX has put its company desires and goals above that of any potential customer and this has not gone unnoticed by those same customers. Whereas ULA/LM/Boeing are both willing and able to adjust to customers’ needs and desires and have a long and rich history of doing so.

Note this also includes GOVERNMENT customers which include both the DoD and NASA. Partially due to this SpaceX has pretty much dropped plans to use the Dragon 1 on manned flights and while Dragon 2 will be cleared for manned flights through Commercial Crew there has been no real interest outside that contract for flights. It hasn’t’ helped that SpaceX has announced they will likely drop both Dragon and Falcon as soon as the initial “mini-BFR” is available.

Going back to that depth of history and record of “Old Space” it is also something to keep in mind that they have done a LOT of work both with government and their own money on such things as recovery and re-usability and can in very short order probably generate, design and construct operational systems if they feel it is required. They and others whom they have worked with have in fact used both the Delta-IV and Atlas V as the ‘basis’ for concept reusable launch vehicles with only the will and funding lacking. And this is all before we take into account such things as “the usual suspects” in Congress tipping the scales…

Randy
 
Bahamut 225 wrote: (some rearranging on my part)
Well, this is a hard question for me to answer, since being Post-STS means, essentially, that there are no particularly good options open to NASA.

And of course, the biggest item in the room. What to do with all this? Where? When?

Really appears to me to be the single-greatest headache NASA is facing. No serious missions where such a capability is needed, and no serious funding for them anyway.

Part of the reason a lot of folks didn’t like O’Keefe’s EELV plan was that it counted on a “future” development of an SDHLV to enable “serious” BLEO operations. This ignored the 4-launch EELV BLEO plans assuming they would be to ‘marginal’ and have insufficient mass to actually work but the plan was actual pretty solid if one assumed Congressional support would be ‘fair’ at best.

It gave plenty of support to LEO operations which was after all about all Congress was willing to support while allowing for some possible BLEO planning on the cheap.

On the other hand any of the SDHLV plans depended on actual and in most cases MORE support from Congress than was likely. But as we’ve seen Congress is perfectly willing to support a ‘future’ launch system to the point. It is where and when it might actually get deployed things get dicey.

The DIRECT option, as I see it, was the only option that had a realistic chance of surviving the early 2000's once STS was forced into retirement. This would be chiefly due to having far greater commonality with STS - same diameter and about length (base and top would have to be redesigned though) plus the already-known 4-seg ATK SRB - than any other that I know of - save for Sidemount. While sidestepping some of the worst disadvantages of STS - mainly being above the Foam and the ability to have Launch Escape at all times IIRC.

Agreed though I’ll point out “Sidemount” never really had a chance despite being even MORE compatible with the STS which was a bit of a pity. It’s major ‘sin’ that I can find was it was even less ‘down-gradable’ than the Jupiter if you can believe that :) See below.

Combined with what should be low Development Cost - albeit at the penalty of High Operational Costs AFAIK - and time, and being either ready or close to ready by the time of Augustine IOTL could well make cancellation next-to-impossible.

The only reason ARES/Constellation was canceled really was because it was already starved of funding and getting no support. Congress howled as a pro-forma thing rather than any actual outrage since they had already stripped it of most funding other than ‘study’ resources. I have a bad suspicion that DIRECT’s Jupiter would have seen similar issues unless it was downgraded below even the 130 variant. (I may be wrong but I seem to recall a propped two engine variant that would require a small ‘upper-stage’ to push Orion into orbit. Congressionally I could see that as acceptable and some small part of my mind wonders if the “130” pushed by the ‘experts’ consulted by the Utah delegation wasn’t payload but a plea to push for the Jupiter 130 to retain the employment. I’m doubtful to say the least :) ) Congress’ main aim was to ensure that nothing of the VSE actually made it bending metal and frankly the Jupiter 130 was pushing that limit. A “121” that could barely push Orion and some cargo into LEO would appeal more.

After all, at this point in time, 2009/2011, Commercial Launch Providers were still rather unknown with not much reputation to their names, so suspicion regarding their ability to deliver was to me justified at the time.

Well it depends really as ULA/LM/Boeing despite what some might think ARE actually “Commercial Launch Providers” and they had an adequate record to that point. (Both Delta-Iv and Atlas V had been flying since 2002 whereas Falcon-9 only since 2010) The main issue was OTL there was nothing to launch crew IN at the time which arguably could have been ‘fixed’ with a bit more effort and focus.

The other key problem with this being, DIRECT is optimized for super-heavy-lift and BEO. So what do you use for medium-lift LEO?

“Down-grade” it more? Once you’ve got an adequate 4-7 person “Orion” your only need is to keep the G’s from getting excessive and still making orbit so it should be plausible for something like a Jupiter 121, while being arguably vastly overpriced and terribly inefficient it gives the “needed” performance, (7 crew and some cargo to the ISS) while holding out the “promise” (by adding a third engine) for BLEO mission at “some future” date.

Or we can always fall back on “The Stick” if we need to right? ;)

Delta-IV would need its RS-68 engines to undergo some substantial reworking to be fit for Manned Flights, given they release a lot of H2 prior to ignition IIRC. While Atlas V has the issue of the Russian-Built RD-180.

The RS-68 had the thrust but not the thrust-to-weight is appears, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-68, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_main_engine) which is why DIRECT initially avoided using them. The RS-68A regenerative was better but still not on par with the SSME. From my understanding both of them tended to release a lot of hydrogen pre-ignition due to having to circulate LH2 through the system to ‘condition’ it. The Delta-IV’s hydrogen doesn’t dissipate the way the Shuttles engines did and the ‘bottom mounting’ position would make this issue appear to be worse as the hydrogen would rise along the tank instead of along the ‘spine’ of the Orbiter. In still conditions it can build up which is why you have the ‘flareup’ along the flank of the Delta-IV but it’s not really dangerous per-se.

The problem with the RS-68s is that it needed to be clustered up further than the SSME did and it was an open question if it could take the heat of being positioned where it was during operation. Once it became clear that they could build an ‘expendable’ SSME at an adequate price the RS-68 fell out of favor. Now if they could only figure out how to air-light it…

Really I’d have to go with keeping O’Keefe and going with the EELVs and risking having an SDHLV stuck in development-hell because at least the US would have SOME capacity available. Arguably “everyone”, (except for the advocates/Space Cadets like me who would really see what was going on) would be nominally “happy” for an arbitrary value of “happy” of course but in general at least. Capacity to launch astronauts NOW with an “HLV” coming along “soon” (™) sometime in the future means we can continue to support the ISS and some other orbital operations while making BLEO plans but having no means to actually carry them out.

Win-Win, again though for a certain value of "win" in general :)

When the Atlas V runs into the RD-180 issues, (which would likely happen sooner if it was the 'chosen' NASA launcher) both a 'fix' and a possible US built version would probably be in the mix shortly after. And everyone would break an arm patting themselves on the back for getting away from that nasty "all-or-nothing" Shuttle situation because hey look we've got a Launch Escape System and it worked!

IF, (big if under the circumstances) Commercial Crew still happens the upside would be that NASA already has a working launch system to use to launch the CC-Dev vehicles which may mean a viable operational flight for Dreamchaser by now instead of just puttering along. Downside is it is unlikely SpaceX got off the ground, (pun intended) with either Falcon Heavy or the Dragon and I'd question Boeing getting the Starliner as well given LM having a flying Orion available.

RAndy
 
The problem is inexpensive and regular access to space. I would put forth a National Space Highway Act where the goal would be to launch one rocket per week. There would be three prime contractors, the winning bid would get half (26 launches), the second and third place would get 13 launches each. The contract would be rebid every other year.

The rocket much have a minimum payload of 20,000 kg. The emphasis is on a regular and reliable launch schedule. If there is no payload that week the launch still occurs with a mass simulator. Obviously "empty" flights can be used for development.

The manned space program will be designed around this system. Anything heavier will be have to be designed to assembled or stored in orbit. I would push for managing it like the Antarctica science program. But in order for that to work there has to be hardware to purchase. So likely a version of Orion would be initiated although if this program can be initiated ITL then having a fully funded Commerical Crew could happen as well.

The individual NASA centers would be involved with building stuff to put on these rockets. Marshalls role shift to be more R&D. Not to produce finished systems but to fly experimental engines and equipment to push the state of the art.

However SpaceX would upend this system. Their rocket is so inexpensive that while they certainly could be the prime contractor for the National Space Highway. the NSH would just be an added cost on top of what they would be charging. Maybe scaled back to once or twice a month focusing on science both unmanned and manned.

Or it may be it will allow SpaceX to be cheaper still by ramping up production beyond what it is now.

That's a very interesting idea. Not one I'd encountered before.

I think the Rocket-A-Day article skips over some difficult steps - for example, payload checking and integration is not cheap and even if you provided a standard bus to integrate payloads into, I'm not sure you could drive down costs by much.

It is an interesting idea though, and would be an interesting experiment to run. I suspect that, with well designed standard buses, the 20,000 kg LV robertsconley proposes, launched once a week, would have much more demand than the smaller LV proposed in the Rocket-A-Day article.

My own suspicion is that such an experiment would fail without a similar investment in developing infrastructure so that not only would the program develop the "highway", it would also develop the "frontier towns" that the highway would go to. So we're talking about building propellant depots, moon bases, SPS constellations, Mars colonies and all that good stuff. To put in place one part of the system without the other parts, you end up with large over-capacity that you don't need, or obscenely expensive "stunt" constructions that have no infrastructure to support them. I do have a sort of an idea for a crazy TL based on a decision in the 70s for the US to construct a serious SPS constellation, it would be a complete wank though, because it would require the USA to invest for 30-40 years at Apollo-levels or higher to create an infrastructure that isn't really needed, since even with charitable assumptions, a SPS would produce power at a similar sort of cost to nuclear power plants and the US already had nuclear power plants in the 70s and were no-where near to maxing out power generation from that or from cheaper sources.

I think the biggest downside will be the fact that in hindsight SpaceX and Blue Origins will drive cost down so low that the goal of the Space Highway System would have been achieve anyway. That if this was done in a ATL that it would just accelerated SpaceX. First as a teritary contractor, then primary, and then "wait SpaceX and its competitor can do this on their own."

The Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy are really quite impressive, however, it is worth keeping in mind that SpaceX still have a ways to go.

Significantly, the prices charged to actual customers are still a long ways from the prices quoted in promotional materials (though misleading prices for LVs is pretty common, it's important to compare like with like - so the sales brochure prices of Falcon rockets with the sales brochure prices of Delta IVs or Atlas Vs or the actual prices charged to customers for Falcon 9 launches with the actual prices charged to customers for Delta IV or Atlas V launches). Payload integration, bespoke services and other miscellaneous costs add to the cost of the LV itself.

Well, this is a hard question for me to answer, since being Post-STS means, essentially, that there are no particularly good options open to NASA.

That's true, on the other hand, there are spectacularly "less worse" options open to NASA. OTL has been a real "US space screw" for the last 14 years.

Agreed though I’ll point out “Sidemount” never really had a chance despite being even MORE compatible with the STS which was a bit of a pity. It’s major ‘sin’ that I can find was it was even less ‘down-gradable’ than the Jupiter if you can believe that :) See below.

Why is side-mount less downgradable? I seem to remember there were shuttle-c proposals with 1 or 2 SSMEs. And since side-mount pushes down total payload (due to greater aerodynamic inefficiency), surely it should be even more attractive if the aim is to build a minimum-R&D maximum-legacy manufacturer revenue LV for ISS support? The lowest-capacity shuttle-C concept I can remember seeing launched something like 40 tonnes into LEO - not too far from what a Delta IV Heavy or Atlas V Heavy (both around the 30 tonne to LEO mark) could do.

It would be the ultimate in CLS vehicles (Congressional Launch System) and thus ugly as sin... But I don't see why the laws of physics would forbid it.

The RS-68A regenerative was better but still not on par with the SSME. From my understanding both of them tended to release a lot of hydrogen pre-ignition due to having to circulate LH2 through the system to ‘condition’ it. The Delta-IV’s hydrogen doesn’t dissipate the way the Shuttles engines did and the ‘bottom mounting’ position would make this issue appear to be worse as the hydrogen would rise along the tank instead of along the ‘spine’ of the Orbiter. In still conditions it can build up which is why you have the ‘flareup’ along the flank of the Delta-IV but it’s not really dangerous per-se.

Did the J-2 leak H2 into the interstages of the Saturn IB and Saturn V?

If so how did they deal with the problem?

fasquardon
 
That's a very interesting idea. Not one I'd encountered before.

Glad I could help some and interesting since "Rocket-A-Day" for quite a while was the "go-to" suggestion for how government should 'support' space flight.

I think the Rocket-A-Day article skips over some difficult steps - for example, payload checking and integration is not cheap and even if you provided a standard bus to integrate payloads into, I'm not sure you could drive down costs by much.

Oh it is a very 'basic' concept which skips over huge chunks of operations and infrastructure but assumes those will be 'in the background' anyway. Really you need the ability to containerize or standardize the cargo interface like every other transport system out there but that itself has huge issues due to the nature and characteristics of space launch. You can get there but it means off-loading a HUGE amount of interface work to someone who is NOT the launch provider and then having absolute trust in their doing every aspect of their job exactly right. Note it has only been in the last 20 years or so we've gotten to that point with AIRCRAFT which is arguably the nearest, (but still imperfect :) ) analogy to space flight we have available. So I'd not expect that to come along any time soon with rockets.

It is an interesting idea though, and would be an interesting experiment to run. I suspect that, with well designed standard buses, the 20,000 kg LV robertsconley proposes, launched once a week, would have much more demand than the smaller LV proposed in the Rocket-A-Day article.

My own suspicion is that such an experiment would fail without a similar investment in developing infrastructure so that not only would the program develop the "highway", it would also develop the "frontier towns" that the highway would go to. So we're talking about building propellant depots, moon bases, SPS constellations, Mars colonies and all that good stuff. To put in place one part of the system without the other parts, you end up with large over-capacity that you don't need, or obscenely expensive "stunt" constructions that have no infrastructure to support them.

Exactly right really but this continues to elude many advocates or they assume that investing in one will automatically lead to the others developing when that's never been the historic case.

I do have a sort of an idea for a crazy TL based on a decision in the 70s for the US to construct a serious SPS constellation, it would be a complete wank though, because it would require the USA to invest for 30-40 years at Apollo-levels or higher to create an infrastructure that isn't really needed, since even with charitable assumptions, a SPS would produce power at a similar sort of cost to nuclear power plants and the US already had nuclear power plants in the 70s and were no-where near to maxing out power generation from that or from cheaper sources.

Well that's probably why you, (as do I and I'm sure others :) ) hang out here after all :) I recall though that one of the major draws of SPS was the fact that it COULD (in theory) compete and beat nuclear though there was a need in there for more 'conventional' energy sources to suddenly dry up to get there in the first place. (Go figure this was during the Oil Shock so the "motivation" was seen to be there and Nukes were "too dangerous" to be used so...)

The problem was it became quite clear really rapidly, (not that NASA and industry didn't pound the point home when it came up either) that the original idea of space based resources for SPS wasn't really as cost-effective as O'Neil and company made it sound. Not from scratch anyway. You could actually make it more affordable to do from Earth by the one thing that Space Advocates saw as the Holy Grail anyway: Lowering the cost to orbit.

Without having some sort of in-space infrastructure to build upon, (even a large space station and on-orbit construction or assembly experience, all which Apollo denied us, made doing things off-Earth vastly more likely) it was a simple matter of finding the will and need and then reducing the cost to orbit by industrial means, (and there are numerous ways to do so if you are serious about it which no one every really has been) and throwing the system up from Earth and KEEP doing it over the long term. Sure your orbital operations more resemble off-shore operations for the most part but in context that's really not a bad thing to have available. You can add to it when you want at a far cheaper cost in resources and effort than having to start 'anew' each and every time. (That sounds familiar) It even has a very good chance of both generating and sustaining commercial and Non-Government Organizational input and efforts despite needing to be government run and supported initially.

Sustaining the effort, as usual, is the main issue since (obviously) the drive to improve solar energy generation is going to be high as well the chances that technology will overtake the initial concept, (as has happened OTL) in short order. One of the main issues with the anti-nuclear crowd support was they were very anti-large-government-technology-fixes for the most part which meant they were just as opposed to SPS as they were nuclear power and no amount of argument would change their minds.

Hence I always fall back on the concept of just accepting that the whole 'justification' issue is going to be a wash so we just put people into space and THEN find things for them to do once they get there. Historically, (if you squint :) ) that is generally how "colonization" worked out on Earth so...

That's true, on the other hand, there are spectacularly "less worse" options open to NASA. OTL has been a real "US space screw" for the last 14 years.

We should demand the moderators move OTL to the ASB section and get a new author :)

Why is side-mount less downgradable? I seem to remember there were shuttle-c proposals with 1 or 2 SSMEs. And since side-mount pushes down total payload (due to greater aerodynamic inefficiency), surely it should be even more attractive if the aim is to build a minimum-R&D maximum-legacy manufacturer revenue LV for ISS support? The lowest-capacity shuttle-C concept I can remember seeing launched something like 40 tonnes into LEO - not too far from what a Delta IV Heavy or Atlas V Heavy (both around the 30 tonne to LEO mark) could do.

The main issue was do 'downgrade' the Sidemount that much required serious changes in the design and structure and admittedly they had even MORE aerodynamic and stress issues. Couple that with the 'assumed' mass of Orion you ended up either with a totally new vehicle with all that implies for the schedule, (remember Sidemount was advertised as EVEN MORE "simple, soon, safe" than anything else) or you ended up with more capacity due to inheriting more of the "STS" legacy. In fact you had issues with the design really if you used anything less than two SSME's due to that being the only 'legacy' option that had studies on aerodynamics and stress management. (One SSME meant an abort so they never really studied it though the 'expert opinion' was the Shuttle and crew were well and truly screwed if it happened) You could 'waste' most of the Atlas and Delta 'over' capacity on an ISS launch given Orion was supposed to be something like 15 to 20 tonnes all on it's own, (meaning with Service Module and abort system of course) but with the Sidemount even if you beefed up the structure to a ridiculous level, (I recall steel I-Beams in some designs) the need for an aerodynamic fairing to mount the Orion on still left you with a "several metric tonnes" space that needed to be filled with some kind of ballast. And despite the assurances it COULD be "inert" substances what was usually mentioned was "little" things like parts for a Mars or Lunar mission...

I'd say 'sometimes' the advocacy tends to shoot themselve is the foot but really it's a constant and ongoing thing so... :)

In the end the 'capacity' issue was less important, (just another brick in the wall if you'll forgive the song quote :) ) than the fact it WAS inefficient and both advocates and Congress were looking at bigger fish to fry and vehicles to build so it wasn't supported really by anyone much.

It would be the ultimate in CLS vehicles (Congressional Launch System) and thus ugly as sin... But I don't see why the laws of physics would forbid it.

The whole issue with length, breadth, height and politics along with being "less" than what the advocates wanted, (granted they had the same heartburn about the EELV plan because it wasn't BIG enough to repeat Apollo) so it gave Congress an excuse to go bigger and more spread out which they gladly took. The laws of physics are unforgiving but the laws of politics are annoying enough they tend to bend to get out of the way anyway :)

Did the J-2 leak H2 into the interstages of the Saturn IB and Saturn V?

If so how did they deal with the problem?

Sepertrons! Actually seriously! The 'settling-and-separation" solid rockets allowed the J2 or J2's on the S-IVB or SII (or S-IV, or Centaur with the RL10s which needed the same conditioning before ignition, all LH2 engines do this btw) to move away from the interstage while the initial LH2 was going through the engine bells before ignition so the gas expanded into space. The "proper" question to ask is why this didn't happen on other ground lit rockets such as the RL10s on the DC-X. :) They momentarily shut off the flow to let the engine bells and area clear before they pushed through the propellant for ignition so as to avoid that issue which they COULD do with the Delta-IV but as the RS-68 is not 'technically' (not the booster engines anyway) able to be restarted that's actually not an option. As I said it looks scary but isn't really though they DID change the insulation foam mixture to avoid those nasty 'burned-looking' marks which had people worried.

Randy
 
I realized that some of my commentary can easily be seen as (some rather harsh in some cases) criticisms without expansion or putting up some of MY more ‘out-there’ ideas for discussion. I apologize if anyone feels that’s the case. I’ll explain, (but no excuse) myself by noting I’ve been a Space Advocate/Cadet/Fanboi since forever or almost half a century at least and I’ve actually seen/heard it all. Given the history of Tellurian space travel I’ve had my heart broken so many times at lost promises and horizons I probably should be a lot more cynical than I already am but it appears I’m an optimistic pessimist by nature.

I hold some very strong opinions which are often based on observed reality and how it functions on the “nuts-n-bolts” level and even though I don’t have much of an official education over some Collage courses life has taught me that the ‘experts’ and people with greater knowledge than I, can and will always be humans too with all that implies towards their “opinions” on their own knowledge. On the other hand intimate knowledge of my own failings and short-comings coupled with a life of “very-steep-curve-learning-experience” moments has taught me to always asses my own bias’s and assumptions while leaving the ability to basically pester (in an arguably polite way) afore mentioned experts and knowledgeable people into submission till I get a nice simple explanation of WHY I’m wrong and where my mistakes are rather than being brushed off with a “Trust me I’m an…whatever” (As a career “wrench-turner” I have learned that while those who design and often build a system can be very smart and clever the fact I’ve been in the position FAR too often of trying to perform MY job in a space that would make a gerbil claustrophobic :) )

On the gripping hand this can make me seem bullheaded and unwilling to forgo some of the more ‘simplistic’ explanations or short-hand descriptions that everyone BUT me understands, and to be fair that’s likely true to an extent. But again personal experience has shown me that reliance on such short-cuts more often than not actually leads to the creation and/or perpetuation of misunderstandings and misinterpretations that can get out of hand very quickly. I do this not out of spite or simply to be argumentative, (my wife says I enjoy being difficult and oppositional to which I reply “Nuh-UH!”) but having a clear and relatively ‘simple’ explanation which has a few ambiguities and places where, through ignorance or malice, it can be misunderstood, mistaken or twisted is of benefit to myself and probably others. Of course it might be better or at least well accepted if I were to learn to do that myself instead of writing short-novels as posts… But where’s the fun in that?

So with that out of the way…

Let me preface the rest of this post by saying it’s long, pretty in-depth and still only the set up for the actual concept/progression. It can be skipped but my preference of course is reading and commenting. However in the interests of TL/DR:

With a ‘start’ no later than the Challenger investigation and aftermath with a rather fundamental change in attitude and focus in both Congress and NASA I feel it’s possible to get a “better” post-Shuttle program once you accept using existing (EELV/STS) systems without a need of a radical change in direction or funding. (It has to go up some but it did OTL first for Return to Flight and then for the ISS) The key is NASA rebuilding Congressional trust AND Congress allowing that trust and backing off from micro-managing NASA for political purposes. Yes I know, borderline ASB but go with it :) )

Note that while I stick by my suggestion of keeping O’Keefe and going the “EELV/Bean-Counter” route because of the reasons I listed, since fasquadron was nice enough to share his “crazy” idea I might as well share my “semi-perfect” post-Shuttle concept.

Begin novel length, (only slightly kidding) post:

Let me start by saying this would START very shortly after Challenger and require some significant changes in attitude and outlook in a lot of places, (Congress, Administration, NASA management to name a few) because it requires and is wholly based on a concept that has never been seriously considered by most of the afore mentioned groups. (Not without arguably good reasons mind you but it is a rather obvious and necessary first step towards a long range goal but a very large challenge that has yet to be taken up by anyone)

The basic and fundamental premise is simply that THE primary and persistent goal and focus of the United States Space Program is the eventual but inevitable expansion of Humanity off-Earth into the Solar System and beyond. Which may sound somewhat familiar as similar wording IS included in every NASA authorization bill but usually watered down and always unsupported. There is a reason for this and most of it revolves around NASA’s attempts to use any such possible ‘justification’ to seek a vastly increased budget and priority so they may return to the “glory” days of Apollo. Hence even when NASA makes plans to do “it” right by building infrastructure and support in an integrated and self-supporting plan over a long period, (the 90-day plan is a good example of this, one could argue that the IPP post-Apollo was another) the budget was a deal-breaker. Usually because NASA lumped the total cost rather than planning and presenting multiple “programs” with a semi-fixed costing structure which would only ‘surge’ when one step had been completed and its costs dropped to ‘maintenance’ levels and the savings could then be used for peak funding on the next step.

My main assertion is that Apollo as a program and paradigm has to be regulated to history as what it was; A panic response to the international and domestic situation at the time that is so unlikely to happen again that it can be discounted from any planning. It was an aberration in both funding and support as well as being an shining of example of what the US could do in an emergency to reach a limited goal in a short time but having no relative bearing or context for an actual long-term, sustainable space effort. Learn to live with that as a basis because it’s obvious that Political leadership has no interest in suggesting or supporting expansive goals that require similarly expansive budgets. (NASA’s recent funding boom if anyone thinks otherwise is not because Congress feels they need to increase the budget but because delayed items and infrastructure repairs can no longer be put off and it it time to pay or shut NASA down) So this is the ‘change’ in NASA management.

The change in the political aspect is more fundamental and therefore probably more important but in general Congress specifically has to take a step back and not use the NASA budget as a way to manipulate funds to go to certain areas while starving others. What needs to happen is that Congress needs to decide and then follow through on that decision that the US Space Program’s “end” goal is to see American’s throughout the Solar System and beyond. Require NASA to construct a plan within a budget and understand it will be a long-term effort with little room for political interference. Once NASA has a plausible plan for the first step, (access and utilization of Low Earth Orbit) that they can agree with they need to trust NASA to do the job and step back into a more purely oversight mode.

Instead Congress has been “teaching NASA a lesson” over the Apollo-1 fire since 1965 and has lost sight (if one admits it wasn’t all about the money in the first place of course) of the reason and justification for this degree of oversight. The direction of vehicle design parameters by-law should never have happened and arguably only came about because the planned “NASA LV” was still in design flux (due to changing requirements that also should not have happened but again this is laid directly at Griffin’s feet) and political pressure to have NASA be open to the possibility of using LRBs instead of SRBs was increasing.

Now while granting there are sound technical reasons to consider LRBs I’ll point out that the SRBs are there, they are known and quantified and available. Like it or not a firm decision to use them had been made so it SHOULD have been possible to resist any political pressure to change now instead of developing the boosters as time and budget allowed. Unfortunately NASA management, (Griffin) decided to try playing the interest groups off each other to get a budget increase and this backfired into not only a firm commitment to use SRBs stated directly in the NASA Authorization Act and an overall budget DECREASE across the board. Keep in mind LRB development and replacement of the SRBs was always planned by NASA but no political will existed to fund that development for obvious reasons. NASA management has to constantly keep themselves aware of and included in the political loop with realistic and plausible planning ready to address concerns but at the same time Congress has to allow NASA the freedom to do the job assigned to them AND trust them to do so by the plan they present.

Historically NASA since its beginnings has played fast and loose with planning and often outright lied to Congress (and the public) about known aspects of those plans and hardware built for those plans in order to ‘preserve’ funding and support. Invariably this does not end well and Congress tends to exact even more ‘revenge’ funding cuts and further oversight on the NASA budget to the point where they now can and do line-item de-fund important systems with no thought or regard to how this effects the current program. Challenger was only the most recent example at the time it happened. NASA at that time actually came-clean on major portions of the program but as they didn’t seem willing to change things short of asking for more funding for a “Shuttle II” program Congress, (who admittedly were not interesting in actually funding the required fixes) gave them a minimum ‘emergency’ funding boost. And then turned around and cut the overall budget again. It was not until the ramp up to the International Space Station that NASA would see funding going up again and once actual construction began the overall budget was cut again. So we’ll grant that some “leaps of faith” are required and happen…

On the public side the majority of the “anti-technology” and specifically “anti-NASA” crowd faded away in the late 70s. More specifically things like Space Colonies as envisioned by O’Neal came into the public awareness and while some seized on opposing things like SPS in general the idea of living and working in space became accepted as possible. In the most basic sense the general public enjoys seeing “space” related things happen. They enjoy pictures and video taken on other planets by robotic means. They also enjoy watching as visible progress is made like as the ISS grew. They are bored stiff by Shuttle missions that simply go up and circle the Earth for a couple of weeks and then return. They yawned when the ‘second’ and subsequent mission left Earth for the Moon, (with the expected ‘spike’ when Apollo 13 became a potential disaster) because that had become ‘routine’ and ‘normal’. Arguably “bad” for PR but in reality you seriously WANT some aspects of space flight to become and remain that way. Why? Because while the public can become interested in specific details, (the trucks, ship, and airplanes the watching, tracking and such are an actual ‘hobby’) in general the day-to-day movement of cargo and people is ignored as a non-interesting detail of how transportation works.

To quote a General from an episode of “Men Into Space” when asked by a VIP how one can make Space Flight ‘routine’ replies;
"You have to make it routine, it has to become routine. That’s how it becomes normal. It’s a job and you treated like one.”

A major issue all around is the idea that people have to be excited by all aspects of space travel if they are excited by it at all which it totally false. If you are taking the “job” seriously HOW you get to space is totally unimportant compared to what you do when you get there. Of course the quandary here is that if getting to and from space becomes routine by direct correlation so too will most tasks accomplished there as well. Which means vast amounts of important work will be little acknowledged outside the fields directly affected by that work. Which btw means congratulations you just got SERIOUS about space instead of just dabbling to generate spectacles for the masses.

What the public WILL take note of is construction, assembly and a growing near-Earth infrastructure. Maybe not as much as watching the first man to step on the Moon but likely about average for the second and later missions. Because it is evidence of a growing capability and promise and the will to pursue both. Which in their head the public can then easily adapt to the idea that space travel may come to them, be something they may one day achieve. And that is exactly what you want because at that point they will begin to push the government and private sectors to move towards fulfilling that need. (For any budding Space Tourism entrepreneur who might read this, congratulations and your welcome but the main reason “Space Tourism” hasn’t taken off yet is simply that to the majority of people it isn’t “real” and won’t be till it IS real and they feel that it has a high chance of being something they can participate in and it meets their interests, priorities, and economics. This hasn’t happened yet)

Whew, so now the preliminaries are out of the way what does all this mean in context?

(I’m long winded? But we knew that :) )

It fundamentally changes the focus and both short and long term goals of the US Space Program. It is actually the Holy Grail of advocates though they never see it due to the timeframe and pace, (assuming a start around 1986 by the time the “Shuttle” retires (assuming in a ‘general way’ that still happens TTL) in 2011 the US still has not gone back to the Moon and Mars is still decades away at best) which when using Apollo as a comparison is glacial. Keep in mind that if you actually compare the two in only a couple of years more, (12 for Apollo, 17 for this to 2011) you will have in place with this the means and infrastructure to support not just a return to the Moon but the ability to deploy multiple mission in the same year and likely at the same time along with the ability to build up and support one or more outposts on the surface. And you never need more than the EELV’s and the STS itself. (With some modifications of course)

It is the difference between rushing to plant more flags and footprints on the Moon, (or even Mars as was the focus of Constellation) with a high likelihood of repeated cancelation and the slow steady build up to go anywhere in the Solar System at any time you want. It does ‘look’ like you spend 20 more years going “around in circles” but since the key point is to ensure every flight does something towards building up and expanding capability without chasing the chimera of the next “big” program or spectacle that will bring back Apollo, (if I seem to harp on this it is only because when one looks at NASA “planning” from the end of Apollo the analogy of trying to recreate Apollo and a Cargo Cult, {https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult} mentality are quite apparent and as disturbing) into the ground over and over again.

The reason the proposed ‘changes’ are so fundamental is because it requires that all parties be invested in the long term goal but also do not feel compelled to either suggest or support large leaps over steady progress. One would think that after almost 50 years of overt and vehement rejection of “Mars”, (arguably even returning to the Moon if we’re honest but keep in mind NASA can’t seem to NOT link doing anything beyond LEO with going to Mars) as a goal NASA would get the hint. Similarly over the same time period the language and rhetoric content of space legislation dealing with NASA had only gotten more grandiose and expressive while actual support has been steady and firm in its marked lack of actual support that Congressional positions are quite clear. In return for admitting that they can’t control the situation forever and assure support for a plausible, steady and above all affordable plan NASA has to agree to keep themselves in check and actually put aside their “main” goals, (keep manned space flight going by launching astronauts with every payload) in order to plan and achieve an optimal mix of operations using available and only marginally modified available systems. In the agreement is that once a sufficient and sustainable Earth orbital infrastructure is in place and sufficient time and resources are available NASA will be allowed to go back to the Moon but Mars will at that point NOT be the immediate and major goal. Focus on Cis-Lunar space first.

Given the historic paradigm of Apollo there is no way this isn’t going to play well with everyone but also given that the Apollo paradigm is in fact one of the major issues and a proven way to NOT do a sustainable program I can actually deal with their disappointment. Too much focus on single and isolated aspects of an actually long term effective overall plan is what got us here “today” in the first place and simply put we need to either decide to get serious or forget the whole thing because what we’re doing is obviously not working.

So onto the “concept” post...

Randy
 
Top