AHC: A better fate for Iran

Pangur

Donor
That is true, although it would be unlikely that President Reagan would have facilitated Khomeini returning from exile in France. It could have been likely that civil war could have broken out in Iran between the Army which was then loyal to the Shah (supported by the United States) and Leftists being supported by the Soviet Union. Although the war would also involve the Soviet Union (supporting the leftists) and Iraq (supporting the Shah's Army).
1: Going by your first post it would have been Ford not Reagan in the WH assuming the same time lines
2: The army may have well have won the your hypothetical civil war however what then? Considering the US would backed the army why would the Iranians be really pleased with the US?
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
1: Going by your first post it would have been Ford not Reagan in the WH assuming the same time lines
2: The army may have well have won the your hypothetical civil war however what then? Considering the US would backed the army why would the Iranians be really pleased with the US?

1. I was editing the post when you were replying, therefore I have President Reagan instead of President Ford between 1976-1980.
2. Shah's Army being backed by the US might be a better prospect for the Iranian people than say the Soviet Army "intervening" in Iran.
 

Pangur

Donor
1. I was editing the post when you were replying, therefore I have President Reagan instead of President Ford between 1976-1980.
Fair enough

2. Shah's Army being backed by the US might be a better prospect for the Iranian people than say the Soviet Army "intervening" in Iran.

How so ? How about both sides butting out and let the Iranians decide their own faith for better or for worse?
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
Fair enough



How so ? How about both sides butting out and let the Iranians decide their own faith for better or for worse?

The United States is not going to have their troops in Iran, rather it is Soviet Union having their troops in Iran. Plus a Marxist regime backed by the Soviet Union would start initiating various purges of opponents. The "Islamic Republic of Iran" purged the Leftists after they took power, so the Marxists would purge the Liberals and Islamists, if could establish a regime in part of Iran at least.
 

Pangur

Donor
The United States is not going to have their troops in Iran, rather it is Soviet Union having their troops in Iran. Plus a Marxist regime backed by the Soviet Union would start initiating various purges of opponents. The "Islamic Republic of Iran" purged the Leftists after they took power, so the Marxists would purge the Liberals and Islamists, if could establish a regime in part of Iran at least.
I note that you did not comment on my second point. However to your first, that may well have been the case however its worth noting that by 1979 the US had 45K military `advisors' in Iran The source I have used i the first I have found checking for this post however I have seen similar numbers else where

EDIT Fixed a spelling error
 
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Given Iran's ethnic diversity, it's a small miracle that Iran hasn't gone through balkanization.

No, it's not. Iran is largely the product of the Sassanids and the Safavids. Shiism and Iranianess are what hold the country together, not language. The only groups that have caused slight headaches for Iran are Sunni Kurds and Balooch. Shia Kurds have never supported separatism. Even Sunni Kurds across the border will acknwoledge their common Iranic heritage with Iran. Zoroastrian revivalism is very popular in Iraqi Kurdistan.
 

Pangur

Donor
No, it's not. Iran is largely the product of the Sassanids and the Safavids. Shiism and Iranianess are what hold the country together, not language. The only groups that have caused slight headaches for Iran are Sunni Kurds and Balooch. Shia Kurds have never supported separatism. Even Sunni Kurds across the border will acknwoledge their common Iranic heritage with Iran. Zoroastrian revivalism is very popular in Iraqi Kurdistan.
To what extent do Iranians see themselves as Persians?
 
To what extent do Iranians see themselves as Persians?

There is no self identifying "Persian" ethnic group in Iran. The indigenous name for the Persian language is Farsi, no one in Iran identifies as "Fars" or "Farsi." Those who come from areas where Farsi has long been spoken will identify as "Irani" and/or whatever province they come from (Isfahan, Shiraz, Hamedan, Khorasan, etc. ) If you belong to a linguistic minority you may self identify with that group, but you will also identify as Irani. For example, my father's family comes from an ethnic group known as Lurs, who are closely related to Kurds. They have their own language, which is an Iranic language related to Farsi and Kurdish, and are also Shia Muslims. These people will proudly self identify as Lurs and Iranis, and there is no perceived conflict between these idenities. The same is true for many other linguistic minorities.

The only groups that probably identify as Persian are the Farsiwan and Tajiks of Afghanistan/Uzbekistan/Tajikistan or the Pars of Azerbaijan Republic. Also, many people from Iran who live in English speaking countries identify as Persian regardless of their linguistic origins. But, these exist outside of the modern borders of Iran.

The name Persian is one that is solely used in the West. People from the Iranian plateau have always self identified as Iranian as long as you spoke and Iranic language and come from the Iranic tradition(Azerbaijanis speak a Turkic language, but they primarily descend from Iranic speakers and have an Iranic tradition, plus they are Shia).
 
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Pangur

Donor
There is no self identifying "Persian" ethnic group in Iran. The indigenous name for the Persian language is Farsi, no one in Iran identifies as "Fars" or "Farsi." Those who come from areas where Farsi has long been spoken will identify as "Irani" and/or whatever province they come from (Isfahan, Shiraz, Hamedan, Khorasan, etc. ) If you belong to a linguistic minority you may self identify with that group, but you will also identify as Irani. For example, my father's family comes from an ethnic group known as Lurs, who are closely related to Kurds. They have their own language, which is an Iranic language related to Farsi and Kurdish, and are also Shia Muslims. These people will proudly self identify as Lurs and Iranis, and there is no perceived conflict between these idenities. The same is true for many other linguistic minorities.

The only groups that probably identify as Persian are the Farsiwan and Tajiks of Afghanistan/Uzbekistan/Tajikistan or the Pars of Azerbaijan Republic. Also, many people from Iran who live in English speaking countries identify as Persian regardless of their linguistic origins. But, these exist outside of the modern borders of Iran.

The name Persian is one that is solely used in the West. People from the Iranian plateau have always self identified as Iranian as long as you spoke and Iranic language and come from the Iranic tradition(Azerbaijanis speak a Turkic language, but they primarily descend from Iranic speakers and have an Iranic tradition, plus they are Shia).
Thanks for the explanation.
 
  • Do not squander the oil shock boon money, but create a rainy days fund.
  • Slow down forced westernisation and try and make peace with the clergy, perhaps with a concordat of sorts.
  • Have Khomeini slip in the bathtub and have other troublemaking ayatollahs likewise retire.
  • Offer a carrot by coopting some faction from the civil society (Bazaari?) but keep the stick in the form of army and SAVAK.
  • Designate a future regency council to guarantee a smooth succession (a single regent could become too attached to the role while young Reza comes of age).
 
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kernals12

Banned
No, it's not. Iran is largely the product of the Sassanids and the Safavids. Shiism and Iranianess are what hold the country together, not language. The only groups that have caused slight headaches for Iran are Sunni Kurds and Balooch. Shia Kurds have never supported separatism. Even Sunni Kurds across the border will acknwoledge their common Iranic heritage with Iran. Zoroastrian revivalism is very popular in Iraqi Kurdistan.
Didn't know that. Thanks for telling me.
 
Kill Ayatollah Khomeini/stop him from stepping foot in Iran. Without Khomeini, the devout religious groups wouldn't have a focus.
 
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