AHC: A Baltic nation with these borders

I think a migration era POD is the best course. Possibly, in the aftermath of Atilla's empire, a local warlord unites the Baltic peoples (lets make him Prussian, because: well, the Old Prussians need to get some proper attention on occasion!). The King begins to take advantage of the power vacuum and expands his realm over the Slavic peoples to the South. Although it takes a few generations (and lord knows there is infighting. You got to have in-fighting), the *Kingdom of Prussia encompasses all of the modern day Baltic territories as well as Poland and some of the *Eastern Slavic lands. Luckily, this is a tribal society and the dynasty is willing to accept the support of people, no matter what language they speak or gods they worship. Still its in everyone's best interest to learn Prussian and slowly the lands begin to Prussianize.

The dynasty founds a small city in OTL Gdansk and that city quickly grows due to royal patronage and comes to control the trade on the Baltic Sea. Although certainly no Rome or even Paris, is the largest urban center in Central and Eastern Europe at the time.

Now, eventually the Franks make contact with the Prussians and, at first, nothing much happens. But eventually the Franks get their Charlemagne-like figure and he seeks to gain the fealty of the Prussians. However his army is routed in battle and the two realms enter into a somewhat hesitant peace. The Prussian Kingdom begins to trade more with the West and knowledge and wealth go both ways. In the 9th century, feeling pressure from the Norse to the North and Slavs to the East, the Prussian King converts to Catholicism. *Gdansk is made the seat of a Bishop.

The Prussians weather the storm of the Norse, they secure their borders to the East. The Kingdom falls apart once or twice due to dynastic squabbling, but always manages to reunite in the end. It is a Prussian King who puts an end to the threat of the Magyars to the South - he forces the Magyar King to convert to Christianity, allows that King to marry one of his younger daughters. *Hungary becomes a client state to Prussia and, although it never becomes fully Baltic in culture nor custom, it is eventually annexed due to a dynastic inheritance. By the 15th century, the Kingdom (or, Empire, some are calling it) of Prussia is the undisputed master of Eastern Europe. It has pushed back the tide of the Slavs to the East and Prussian settlers are migrating into the OTL Ukraine to help found cities ...

How does that work?
 
I think a migration era POD is the best course. Possibly, in the aftermath of Atilla's empire, a local warlord unites the Baltic peoples (lets make him Prussian, because: well, the Old Prussians need to get some proper attention on occasion!). The King begins to take advantage of the power vacuum and expands his realm over the Slavic peoples to the South. Although it takes a few generations (and lord knows there is infighting. You got to have in-fighting), the *Kingdom of Prussia encompasses all of the modern day Baltic territories as well as Poland and some of the *Eastern Slavic lands. Luckily, this is a tribal society and the dynasty is willing to accept the support of people, no matter what language they speak or gods they worship. Still its in everyone's best interest to learn Prussian and slowly the lands begin to Prussianize.

The dynasty founds a small city in OTL Gdansk and that city quickly grows due to royal patronage and comes to control the trade on the Baltic Sea. Although certainly no Rome or even Paris, is the largest urban center in Central and Eastern Europe at the time.

Now, eventually the Franks make contact with the Prussians and, at first, nothing much happens. But eventually the Franks get their Charlemagne-like figure and he seeks to gain the fealty of the Prussians. However his army is routed in battle and the two realms enter into a somewhat hesitant peace. The Prussian Kingdom begins to trade more with the West and knowledge and wealth go both ways. In the 9th century, feeling pressure from the Norse to the North and Slavs to the East, the Prussian King converts to Catholicism. *Gdansk is made the seat of a Bishop.

The Prussians weather the storm of the Norse, they secure their borders to the East. The Kingdom falls apart once or twice due to dynastic squabbling, but always manages to reunite in the end. It is a Prussian King who puts an end to the threat of the Magyars to the South - he forces the Magyar King to convert to Christianity, allows that King to marry one of his younger daughters. *Hungary becomes a client state to Prussia and, although it never becomes fully Baltic in culture nor custom, it is eventually annexed due to a dynastic inheritance. By the 15th century, the Kingdom (or, Empire, some are calling it) of Prussia is the undisputed master of Eastern Europe. It has pushed back the tide of the Slavs to the East and Prussian settlers are migrating into the OTL Ukraine to help found cities ...

How does that work?
That actually doesn't sound too bad. Reuniting this massive nation and keeping it intact for centuries might not be very realistic (it is, well, yuuge), but it's plausible, at least on paper.

As for the Gdansk analogue, well, you don't even need to make up a new town - Prussians had a historical Gdansk analogue.
 

trajen777

Banned
1. Poland defeated by the Tutonic Knights
2. The TK owned (with the Livonia brotherhood of swords a good portion) a good portion of the baltic states
220px-Teutonic_Order_1260.png


3. Have them be more aggressive on territory conquest in the mid to late 1300s (In 1348, the Order won a great victory over the Lithuanians in the Battle of Strėva, severely weakening them. The Teutonic Knights won a decisive victory over Lithuania in the Battle of Rudau in 1370.)
4. At the Battle of Tannerberg 1410 they lost a fairly close battle -- but it was against a combined Poland and Lith. With Poland by it self or a weakened Lith W Poland then you have a great victory. The treaty against the TK left them bankrupt and ultimately a lot of the territory was lost. A victory would have given them financial control over Poland and you might have seen (or would have) a gradual take over of Poland.
5. With the resources of Lith and Poland behind them and a supportive HRE and Hungary you would have seen a gradual of absorption of the Kievian state, as the Mongols receded
6. As the TK become more integrated with the Poles and Lith you would have had an absorption and blending of societies. (think Vikings in Russia )
 
1. Poland defeated by the Tutonic Knights
2. The TK owned (with the Livonia brotherhood of swords a good portion) a good portion of the baltic states
220px-Teutonic_Order_1260.png


3. Have them be more aggressive on territory conquest in the mid to late 1300s (In 1348, the Order won a great victory over the Lithuanians in the Battle of Strėva, severely weakening them. The Teutonic Knights won a decisive victory over Lithuania in the Battle of Rudau in 1370.)
4. At the Battle of Tannerberg 1410 they lost a fairly close battle -- but it was against a combined Poland and Lith. With Poland by it self or a weakened Lith W Poland then you have a great victory. The treaty against the TK left them bankrupt and ultimately a lot of the territory was lost. A victory would have given them financial control over Poland and you might have seen (or would have) a gradual take over of Poland.
5. With the resources of Lith and Poland behind them and a supportive HRE and Hungary you would have seen a gradual of absorption of the Kievian state, as the Mongols receded
6. As the TK become more integrated with the Poles and Lith you would have had an absorption and blending of societies. (think Vikings in Russia )
You need to have a Baltic ruled and populated nation with these borders, not a German ruled and Slavic populated nation as you would get in this scenario.
 
That actually doesn't sound too bad. Reuniting this massive nation and keeping it intact for centuries might not be very realistic (it is, well, yuuge), but it's plausible, at least on paper.

As for the Gdansk analogue, well, you don't even need to make up a new town - Prussians had a historical Gdansk analogue.

Interesting, it had a rival on the Courish Lagoon as well - and if we work with the idea that it is the precursor to Elblag - then the Elblag river could be a solid western frontier - perhaps allowing them to farm the western shore, and work to dominate the Vistula Lagoon via defeating its rival in Wiskiauten.

Truso taking charge of the Vistula Lagoon could be a prime driver in organising the Balts. Plus, if you center everything on the lagoon - its shallow draft makes it a great place to use shallow-draft barges. Set up base overlooking the Strait of Baltiysk and you not only have security against pirates (short of them portaging across the spit), but you've got a good place to centre a civilisation around, that could later repeat itself in the Courish Lagoon.

Makes you wonder why they couldn't IOTL - is there anything preventing them building small palisades->towns on the edge of the lagoon?
 

trajen777

Banned
You need to have a Baltic ruled and populated nation with these borders, not a German ruled and Slavic populated nation as you would get in this scenario.

I was thinking of a group that had lived in the Baltic for hundreds of years. Which would fit TK
 
Interesting, it had a rival on the Courish Lagoon as well - and if we work with the idea that it is the precursor to Elblag - then the Elblag river could be a solid western frontier - perhaps allowing them to farm the western shore, and work to dominate the Vistula Lagoon via defeating its rival in Wiskiauten.

Truso taking charge of the Vistula Lagoon could be a prime driver in organising the Balts. Plus, if you center everything on the lagoon - its shallow draft makes it a great place to use shallow-draft barges. Set up base overlooking the Strait of Baltiysk and you not only have security against pirates (short of them portaging across the spit), but you've got a good place to centre a civilisation around, that could later repeat itself in the Courish Lagoon.

Makes you wonder why they couldn't IOTL - is there anything preventing them building small palisades->towns on the edge of the lagoon?
The fall of Truso/Elbing/Elbląg in exchange for the rise of Gdansk had a simple reason, really - in the past, the lagoon did not exist, because there was an opening in the Vistula Spit roughly in front of where the city used to be, but in the 12th century or so, the opening closed because of sand accumulation and the trip to reach the city became much longer, having to sail around the whole lagoon.

Lagoons may look like they are vast natural ports, but they actually suck for sea transport, because they are extremely shallow, usually only a few meters or so. The Curonian lagoon to the north is an another example of this - there's a reason why Klaipėda is built right at the mouth of the lagoon rather than somewhere more inland, because otherwise even medieval ships wouldn't have been able to reach it.

In addition, the spits that separate the lagoon from the open sea, both Curonian and Vistulan, are pretty terrible for large scale settlements, because they are most entirely composed of sand, and thus not only suck for agriculture, but also hold dangerous hazards in the form of travelling sand dunes (yes, those happen there! and they used to bury entire villages overnight)
 

CaliGuy

Banned
zmlpstr.jpg


No preferences on the earliest possible POD, but this nation must be ruled and inhabited by Baltic peoples (as in, the majority of the population is Baltic), whether a single Baltic nation or many.
Does this state have to include East Prussia?
 
The fall of Truso/Elbing/Elbląg in exchange for the rise of Gdansk had a simple reason, really - in the past, the lagoon did not exist, because there was an opening in the Vistula Spit roughly in front of where the city used to be, but in the 12th century or so, the opening closed because of sand accumulation and the trip to reach the city became much longer, having to sail around the whole lagoon.

Lagoons may look like they are vast natural ports, but they actually suck for sea transport, because they are extremely shallow, usually only a few meters or so. The Curonian lagoon to the north is an another example of this - there's a reason why Klaipėda is built right at the mouth of the lagoon rather than somewhere more inland, because otherwise even medieval ships wouldn't have been able to reach it.

In addition, the spits that separate the lagoon from the open sea, both Curonian and Vistulan, are pretty terrible for large scale settlements, because they are most entirely composed of sand, and thus not only suck for agriculture, but also hold dangerous hazards in the form of travelling sand dunes (yes, those happen there! and they used to bury entire villages overnight)

I understood the depth issue, hence why I thought that barges might work. Very Shallow barges. But if the Lagoon didn't exist at the time that it'd be useful, then it is a bit of a moot point.

I wonder what the old channel of the Elblag river was then, because surely following that to its coast is the best option (or was it once the coast?). It does mean that you can't do a mega-Venice (shame), but it is still a good starting point. They just need to figure out how to adapt to the formation of the lagoon. Perhaps taking a leaf out of China or the Netherlands playbooks and try and control its growth - build canals to drain water into and turn the land/preserve the land for farming, or even just use wood and excavation to keep the opening clear.

Heck, there is nothing that technically marries the Balts to Elblag. It would be a good 'Old Capital', forming there and later relocating to Gdansk or some other location on the Vistula. Heck, if the Prus in the 500s are able to use the Carruca/Heavy Plow (used by the slavs in 568, so only a little earlier), then rather than the Polanes leading a unification of OTL Poland, the Prus could work to unite the Balts into some sort of coalition and force the Slavs out towards to Greater Moravia.

Heck, getting better agricultural tools in the region 50 years earlier could be the Baby Boom that is required. If it can secure the Vistula a western border, or even better, a heartland - you've got the start of things. Its just... when could the Balts unite? I don't know enough to say anything other than having a Baltic Philip of Macedon - innovate militarily, and forcibly settle people and introduce the Carraca early. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a Baltic Philip followed by a Baltic Alexander (heck, a mini-Alexander would be better, Vistula/Oder western borders FTW), what turning points are there?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
It's included in the map so yes.
If so, your best bet is to have the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth be stronger, expand further, and then Lithuanize a majority of its population (for instance, if it has a series of Lithuanophile Kings).
 
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