AHC: 20th century, noncoerced US purchase of some UK, Fra, Dutch, NZ,or Aussie colonies?

raharris1973

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Are there any circumstances under which any of these countries would be willing to sell any of their colonial holdings and the US would be willing to buy.

I do not think it likely, but if it did happen it would more likely be someplace in the Western Hemisphere or some Island in the Pacific, Indian or Atlantic oceans rather than any place on the mainland of Africa or Asia.
 
Guyana, maybe? Or some island somewhere in the Pacific.

US Imperialism was primarily directed 1) towards the Natives, 2) towards Mexico, 3) towards the Caribbean, and 4) towards the Pacific (ultimately towards China).

Given the unrest in the Philippines I'm not sure how much appetite there would be for significant acquisitions.
 
Greenland seems a possibility. Iceland was always pretty independent and I don't think that Denmark could effectively sell it. Maybe if the Soviets manage to occupy most of Denmark towards the end of WW2 (They managed to occupy the island of Bornholm at the end of the war.) you might see the US occupy Greenland long term or perhaps convince the remnant Danish government to sell it.
 
Are there any circumstances under which any of these countries would be willing to sell any of their colonial holdings and the US would be willing to buy.

I do not think it likely, but if it did happen it would more likely be someplace in the Western Hemisphere or some Island in the Pacific, Indian or Atlantic oceans rather than any place on the mainland of Africa or Asia.

A post of mine from last month:

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"Earlier, in March 1918, the promise of fuel accessibility had prompted Franklin to explore the acquisition of petroleum-rich Curacao, in the lower Caribbean, from the Dutch, using as precedent Wilson's purchase (as the renamed Virgin Islands) of the Danish West Indies in January 1917, ostensibly to protect approaches to the Panama Canal. Despite the disapproval of Daniels, who read imperial designs on the order of TR into the proposal, Roosevelt suggested that Marley Hay, a submarine expert he knew, who was planning to travel to the Netherlands, raise the matter there. Concerned that the Germans would view a sale as a violation of Dutch neutrality, the Netherlands foreign minister declined to discuss it. It was yet another example of FDR's venturing beyond his brief." Stanley Weintraub, Young Mr. Roosevelt: FDR's Introduction to War, Politics, and Life https://books.google.com/books?id=xUUPAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT134

AHC: The US does acquire Curacao--maybe before the US enters the War (so it's just a sale from one neutral to another) or possibly after the War ends (so German objections don't matter).
 

raharris1973

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Guyana, maybe? Or some island somewhere in the Pacific.

US Imperialism was primarily directed 1) towards the Natives, 2) towards Mexico, 3) towards the Caribbean, and 4) towards the Pacific (ultimately towards China).

Given the unrest in the Philippines I'm not sure how much appetite there would be for significant acquisitions.

Maybe some island in the Pacific?

Which one?

I agree the US would shy away from any acquisition with the population, or even land area, comparable to the Philippines. Most Pacific and Caribbean islands were much smaller on both scores.
 
The UK decides rather than a lease to the Americans they flog off Diego Garcia (well the whole of the BIOT) - perhaps with a lease option or basing rights of their own in return?
 

raharris1973

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Guyana, maybe?

Interesting - what do you think the draw is of Guyana in particular? Rainforest products? A position around the southern entrance of the Caribbean?

Curacao is an interesting one. Maybe had the concept been developed when America was still neutral and the price is right for the Dutch. What about the rest of the Dutch Antilles like Aruba and St. Maarten, or Surinam.

The DEI had oil too, but with the experience of the Philippines war and the DEI's vast size and population, really not going to happen whereas Dutch Caribbean spots are conceivable. And that's before even thinking about the Dutch selling off their colonial Crown Jewel.

Trinidad & Tobago - Say the Hoover people hold their tongues and don't telegraph the idea of a moratorium, and the sale is discussed early enough that circumstances post-Wall Street crash (also in October, same time as the summit) don't make economic anxiety and the need to talk about a moratorium acute? Is MacDonald up for selling while Hoover is still in a buying mood? The buying mood is going to disappear within a couple months at most.

What about a territories for war debts offer to the British or French in between the Armistice and the beginning of the Washington Conference?
 
Interesting - what do you think the draw is of Guyana in particular? Rainforest products? A position around the southern entrance of the Caribbean?

Curacao is an interesting one. Maybe had the concept been developed when America was still neutral and the price is right for the Dutch. What about the rest of the Dutch Antilles like Aruba and St. Maarten, or Surinam.

The DEI had oil too, but with the experience of the Philippines war and the DEI's vast size and population, really not going to happen whereas Dutch Caribbean spots are conceivable. And that's before even thinking about the Dutch selling off their colonial Crown Jewel.

Trinidad & Tobago - Say the Hoover people hold their tongues and don't telegraph the idea of a moratorium, and the sale is discussed early enough that circumstances post-Wall Street crash (also in October, same time as the summit) don't make economic anxiety and the need to talk about a moratorium acute? Is MacDonald up for selling while Hoover is still in a buying mood? The buying mood is going to disappear within a couple months at most.

What about a territories for war debts offer to the British or French in between the Armistice and the beginning of the Washington Conference?

The main reason would be in any CP victory, the US being probably opposed to German colonies in the Americas, they'd want either independence or to annex them outright a la Puerto Rico.
 
One old reference I have heard of (which has scant documentation) was a deal with France for more wartime equipment, with the cost being the US purchase (or lease? unsure) of various French colonies. Implication being that these would be either Caribbean or Pacific colonies, starting with the Pacific ones. Polynesia would be able to stand on a territory of its own, Wallis & Futuna would be folded in with Samoa, and New Caledonia might be of particular interest for its minerals... French Guyana would allow a forward base in the Caribbean, which would be of great help in a timeline where the Germans are more proactive in South America (and guarding against German traffic back and forth). The other French possessions in the Caribbean would be very much the difficult part to integrate, and St. Pierre & Miquelon might become a separate territory or be folded into Maine.

Deal I think was called Aircraft for Colonies, but the French didn't really need aircraft; they needed other weapons and they needed them sooner.

I suppose there's the possibility that the European nations go even farther into debt than in OTL, which results in them having to mortgage some possessions overseas in order for the US to compensate the lenders.

One of these could be the Line Islands, of which the US maintained claims for under the Guano Islands Act. That definitely could be one that the US continued to attempt to claim, and could be mortgaged to try and relieve some debt.

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Still, most of this is just conjecture, of course.
 

raharris1973

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What about an interwar purchase of selected British and Dominion and Netherlands islands? Gilberts & Ellice, Santa Cruz islands, Nauru, the Bismarck Archipelago and
the minor Dutch islands north of Dutch New Guinea and Morotai north of the Moluccas?

That has the effect of creating a fairly continuous string of American held islands linking Hawaii, Samoa and the Philippines while outflanking the Japanese Central Pacific Mandate from the south. None have particularly large areas or populations-New Britain and New Ireland are the biggest, and Rabaul is a back-up base to Manila for the US Asiatic fleet.

1039px-Pacific_Area_-_Imperial_Powers_1939_-_Map.png
 
What about in the Nineteen Twenties buying Goa from Portugal?
That would set up an interesting situation after India gains independence.
 
From a military perspective, I don't see the point of such a massive purchase. You're not excluding any rivals from the area (Western Samoa and Fiji are British and Papua New Guinea is Australian, so there's no point to purchase all of it. There is no historical claim to much of the region.

International waters are large enough that there is no reason to need to purchase all of that territory, as there is no worry about a war against either of the nations in the immediate aftermath. The US doesn't use the archipelago rule, anyway, for delineating naval boundaries. If they did, it might be a different story.

US ships are designed for long distances in mind, and don't need the multitude of bases for coaling/refueling. The sheer surfeit of islands is unnecessary, in that sense.

There's also the issue of convincing Australia to give up some of its territory, much of which Australia fought for in the war. That's incredibly difficult in and of itself.

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Now, not to say that part isn't impossible. Having a potential fallback could be seen as useful, but the best options are either the Solomons or the Bismarck Archipelago. You're going to need an incredibly sweet deal from the US, poor conditions for the UK/Australia/etc. I mean, really really poor conditions, where maintaining the islands is infeasible. That, or incredible defense drawdowns and delegating more to the Empire and the Dominions, which makes Australia feel isolated, and so they give in and sell a nearby port to the US in order to keep the Japanese further away (resulting in a proto-Alliance between the Dominions and the US).

So, you get one more major base in the region, which can act as another fallback potentially. But at most it becomes another Samoa in the long run. It is more likely to be let go as an independent state, but due to its small size, it might keep closer ties (Akin to Micronesia et al in OTL).

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Really to do this, you need a more expansionist and internationalist US.
 

raharris1973

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What about in the Nineteen Twenties buying Goa from Portugal?
That would set up an interesting situation after India gains independence.

That would be really "interesting" for Anglo-American relations.

I suspect upon independence, the US will cede it to independent India but try to a butter up the Indians to lease a naval base.

From a military perspective, I don't see the point of such a massive purchase. You're not excluding any rivals from the area (Western Samoa and Fiji are British and Papua New Guinea is Australian, so there's no point to purchase all of it. There is no historical claim to much of the region.

International waters are large enough that there is no reason to need to purchase all of that territory, as there is no worry about a war against either of the nations in the immediate aftermath. The US doesn't use the archipelago rule, anyway, for delineating naval boundaries. If they did, it might be a different story.

US ships are designed for long distances in mind, and don't need the multitude of bases for coaling/refueling. The sheer surfeit of islands is unnecessary, in that sense.

Indeed, if the US anticipates a hostile relationship with Britain or Australia, it is more of a problem than a solution.

I had this in mind as an anti-Japanese precaution, not an anti-British Empire and Dominions one.

There's also the issue of convincing Australia to give up some of its territory, much of which Australia fought for in the war. That's incredibly difficult in and of itself.

Well yeah, I think there's a tendency of people in any country to assume others would be more willing to sell their land than in reality.

So Australia is hard to convince. On the other hand, if the Australians choose to consider it as an opportunity, it *could* have its advantages. It would place a set of American held islands, the Bismarcks, in between the Japanese mandated islands and New Guinea and the Australian east coast. That could function as a shield of sorts. Also, the proposal still leaves all mainland Papua in Australian hands.

Having a potential fallback could be seen as useful, but the best options are either the Solomons or the Bismarck Archipelago.

Indeed, the fallback aspect would be the main point of all the proposed purchases.

But at most it becomes another Samoa in the long run. It is more likely to be let go as an independent state, but due to its small size, it might keep closer ties (Akin to Micronesia et al in OTL).

Yes, it probably does and does not become a permanent possession.

Really to do this, you need a more expansionist and internationalist US.

For these areas to become an integral part of the U.S., for sure. It's not like these would provide some big accretion to American power over the long-haul. The main point of having a string of bases like this would be mostly to deter Japan from attacking any U.S. possessions in the western Pacific at all, or, if deterrence failed, to have multiple axes of counterattack against the Japanese mandates and against Japanese shipping to/from the DEI. If the purchase were done in the late interwar, or between the invasion of Poland and Pearl Harbor, it could also free up the British and Australians from fears of the Japanese threat and permit them to throw a little more at the European Axis.
 
@raharris1973

Best bet then would be to some way to engender massive opposition to Japanese in Australia, and far earlier. Then the Australians, while scared of the Japanese and still desiring to retain the alliance, desperately need assurance. Perhaps a more exhausted Great Britain which is having even more difficulties defending the colonies.

While the US is unwilling to sign onto an alliance, they "might" be willing to make a purchase of the Bismarck archipeligo, effectively placing themselves square between the US and Australia, moving to oppose the nation earlier.

And yeah, pretty much, selling colonies is very difficult. See how attached Denmark is to Greenland. You need a minor country and a very unprofitable colony that they need to get rid of.

Or, well, you need Germany winning WW1 and the US purchasing the colonies before they can be ceded to Germany so that they'll abandon portions of France. very shady all around.
 
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