AHC: 16th century century Christianization of Korea

Then I believe I will stick with him marrying a Korean aristocrat, which is not unlikely.
Well, if the daughter of a high-ranking Canadian official is willing to marry a Boko Haram fighter, I'll say it is possible.
However, overall this argument is becoming quite tiresome. As a person who understands both sides of an argument usually, I believe that this is an argument that nobody will actually be correct about.
If you believe we were making arguments out of very vague facts, I suppose further research into the topic would have helped, as there is quite a lot of data upon these topic which we have made discourse.
We simply can't understand any culture enough at the time to know how they would handle such an iffy issue.
As a Korean I suppose I can attest to an argument that I probably know a fair amount of Korean culture, hence my assertion that I have been making for some time during the conversation in this thread.
I usually hate to argue for an above reason, but I am also quite convinced that if everyone tried to come up with counter arguments each time they posted for themselves, then arguments would take less time.
There is a fair difference between being fair in arguments and not doing enough research upon the topic.
I hope no ill feelings remain for those I've argued with.
That's great, I share the same sentiment. It was a good talk, I suppose.
I hope you all had a Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year!
Merry Christmas to you also.
 

I was out of town today and am currently mentally and physically exhausted, so I'll apologize in advance if my response isn't particularly satisfactory.

However, I will say that Korea will not be able to significantly alter its religious or political viewpoints (no "Little China," and essentially no Christianity) as long as the Southern Ming continues to exist, while if masses do flee to Korea after the holdout Chinese entity is finally conquered, Joseon will turn the defectors over to the Qing to avoid further confrontations. This can only change if all of China is fragmented among 10+ entities for well over a century, which would require a PoD before the Ming (and possibly the Yuan).

I hope this covers it.

I thought you had sent me a PM indicating that you wanted to end this discussion as soon as possible so that it didn't generate into "flaming?"

(I wrote this before I saw your recent post.)

Anyway, I'll just answer this for today:

Congo in 2014 is much different from Russia in the 1500's. A nomadic entity can be more dangerous, as we know from the Mongol Khanate's history.

Korea (as Goryeo) essentially continued to fight the Mongols for 42 years, specifically from 1231-73, and included seven major campaigns, along with an uprising from 1270-3 due to a counter-coup, after all of which about half of the peninsular population was wiped out. The court had also depleted the treasury in order to systematically carve over 52 million Chinese characters within the Tripitaka Koreana in order to request divine intervention. For comparison, the Southern Song held out against the Mongols from 1260-94 (34 years), after which its monarch and most of the court was wiped out (by suicide), while Goryeo's monarchy and court continued to remain intact (although its rulers were obligated to marry Mongol princesses for a century). Joseon attempted to top this by preparing to train around 500,000-1 million troops in the mid 14th century due to the apprehension that the Ming would collapse (as mentioned in an earlier post), which even Goryeo would have balked at, although they were ultimately never mobilized.

The Imjin War also caught Joseon completely unprepared with its hands down, and it's worth mentioning that Hideyoshi was essentially a madman who wanted to conquer all of East, South, and Southeast Asia, although his forces never ventured outside of Joseon. Specifically, the Japanese navy only scored one victory within Korea out of around 26 naval battles, and stiff guerrilla resistance occurred across the countryside, which eventually forced the Japanese to withdraw twice after laying waste to most of the peninsula.

Given that "Korea" continued to remain independent despite invasions from 15 states from around ~300 BC to the 17th century, and was never militarily conquered, I find it extremely difficult to comprehend why Russia would even attempt to do so if all of the logistical issues would have been heavily stacked up against them in a major invasion.

I also have a non-historical analogy I'd like to explain to you tomorrow after I catch some sleep.
 

scholar

Banned
I was out of town today and am currently mentally and physically exhausted, so I'll apologize in advance if my response isn't particularly satisfactory.

However, I will say that Korea will not be able to significantly alter its religious or political viewpoints (no "Little China," and essentially no Christianity) as long as the Southern Ming continues to exist, while if masses do flee to Korea after the holdout Chinese entity is finally conquered, Joseon will turn the defectors over to the Qing to avoid further confrontations. This can only change if all of China is fragmented among 10+ entities for well over a century, which would require a PoD before the Ming (and possibly the Yuan).
That's not a problem, you don't need to rush to respond on Christmas.

Anyways, the endgame is still to have the Ming crumble into nothing. It just takes longer, results in more migrants, and circumstances make Korea a popular tertiary destination for refugees opposed to living under the Qing.
 
That's not a problem, you don't need to rush to respond on Christmas.

Anyways, the endgame is still to have the Ming crumble into nothing. It just takes longer, results in more migrants, and circumstances make Korea a popular tertiary destination for refugees opposed to living under the Qing.

Well, I also need to work on my severely delayed TL, so this will be all that I will have to say on this scenario.

While "Christianity with Confucian characteristics" might temporarily flourish as long as the Southern Ming continues to exist, this will also cease after the Qing reunifies China.
 
I also have a non-historical analogy I'd like to explain to you tomorrow after I catch some sleep.

Here's the analogy.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people would have done puzzles involving "Connect the dots" when they were younger. As a refresher, there are lots of little dots scattered out across the page, which may appear to be random, but once they are systematically connected together, a coherent picture "appears." Because the dots have to be linked to each other in an orderly fashion, some puzzles have numbers marked on each of the dots to indicate how they should be connected. Let's assume that the completed picture represents "OTL."

If no numbers are indicated, it is technically possible to "break the rules" and create a different picture that still remains coherent, although this is relatively rare, which can be viewed as an "ATL." However, if someone decides to connect every single dot to each other (an exponential amount), or link all of the dots furthest away from each other, the result becomes incomprehensible, which is equivalent to an "implausible/impossible scenario." The latter "technically" remains possible, but cannot be rationally deciphered.

It's also worth noting that not all of the dots closest to each other are connected for the purposes of the picture, which also closely approximates historical events.

The two quotes below should hopefully make more sense within the above context:

[A]lternate history doesn't mean that virtually anything can happen with just a few minor butterflies. It requires systematic knowledge of the society, culture, economics, politics, and the military, then logically/pragmatically hypothesizing what might have happened if things had gone differently.

[C]onstructive discussion are difficult . . . when . . . random connections between situations [are made] that have no relation whatsoever, then claiming that with a few minor tweaks, complex logistical, social, and political (not to mention military) issues can be butterflied away without presenting systematic justification for them.


Additionally, "必死卽生, 必生卽死" is a quote that was originally stated by Sun Tzu, but was popularized in Korea under Yi Sun-shin, and literally means "Always die then live, always live then die." In English, this means that if someone is willing to die for their beliefs, the person will live (or be remembered by others), while the reverse will occur if someone is only willing to live without taking risks (or eventually be forgotten). This is why it is infinitely more difficult for invaders to win if defenders have the means to fight at least for decades, usually through guerrilla warfare, as the latter's existence as a country is generally at stake, while those on the offensive are often preoccupied with events elsewhere.

I hope you all had a Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year!

Happy New Year to you as well.
 

scholar

Banned
Well, I also need to work on my severely delayed TL, so this will be all that I will have to say on this scenario.

While "Christianity with Confucian characteristics" might temporarily flourish as long as the Southern Ming continues to exist, this will also cease after the Qing reunifies China.
That's alright, don't worry about it. I can relate myself, given the monster I just wrote for A Saga of Dreams. :D

Since you are busy, you do not have to respond until you are ready. There's no reason to assume what you said has to happen, especially since the Silhak movement and Confucian Catholicism still happened after the Southern Ming was gone. Confucian Catholicism was flourishing under the Qing and the guide of Matteo Ricci with hundreds of thousands of converts. Both of these ultimately failed, but the point of alternate history is to think of ways to change that. We are beholden to the setting history gives us, and we are beholden to the reality of the situation, but nothing in history is predetermined.
 
That's alright, don't worry about it. I can relate myself, given the monster I just wrote for A Saga of Dreams. :D

Since you are busy, you do not have to respond until you are ready. There's no reason to assume what you said has to happen, especially since the Silhak movement and Confucian Catholicism still happened after the Southern Ming was gone. Confucian Catholicism was flourishing under the Qing and the guide of Matteo Ricci with hundreds of thousands of converts. Both of these ultimately failed, but the point of alternate history is to think of ways to change that. We are beholden to the setting history gives us, and we are beholden to the reality of the situation, but nothing in history is predetermined.

Well, I'm probably not going to respond for 4-6 months at a minimum (so basically never), but I'll just leave the below here.

I certainly realize the intricacies of AH, hence my analogy above.

In any case, I'm still certain that Christianity seeping much further into Korean society is virtually impossible for several reasons. For one, I actually did extensive research into Silhak for about a month of two (due to a request from zeppelinair half a year ago) by looking at a variety of Korean sources, such as these ones, all of which also link to other sources, and none of them even mentioned Catholicism at all. I actually had to dig much further into more obscure sources to conclude that the intellectuals did believe in a "God," but it's worth noting that Korean historians generally place the beginning of Korean Christianity around the late 18th century, suggesting its "nonexistence" before then.

Also, the general situation that you're depicting had essentially occurred (on a geopolitical level) during most of Goryeo's existence, as the Khitan and Jurchen cut off Korea's overland routes into China, although numerous Chinese traders and intellectuals/officials continued to visit Korean ports, leading to exchanges of various ideas. However, Goryeo began to adopt a largely autonomous approach without attempting to become "Little China," as Buddhism was eventually molded into a more "Korean" version with relatively minimal "Chinese" influences, technically leading to de-Sinicization. While the Mongols did reunite China under the Yuan (similar to what the Manchus had done), this also did very little to change Goryeo's overall outlook, as it had been thoroughly devastated after essentially 42 years of continuous warfare. In other words, as long as the Qing continues to put significant pressure on the Southern Ming, it will also do the same with Joseon in order to prevent a two-front war, while by the time that Korea eventually recovers from two major wars by the early 18th century, the Southern Ming would have essentially ceased to exist, making any military "support" or cultural exchanges virtually impossible.

Additionally, the Korean court was never particularly interested in Silhak to begin with, as it was limited to individual intellectuals who travelled abroad, which in turn severely limited their political/personal connections. As a result, unless a fully unified China officially declares Christianity as the state religion, I don't see how Korea is going to eventually adopt Catholicism even in a diluted form, as Korean ideology either evolved among "native" lines with minimal outside influences, or strictly followed a united China's approach.

Hopefully the above should make sense.
 
Monastic Orders

Could perhaps have been a better and more permanent Evangelization in the Far East: China and Korea, if this had been done by Western monastic orders, simultaneously or in place of the Jesuits.?

It would have been interpreted as a greater threat by Buddhists, a foreign Monastic Order, built monasteries, catechized adepts and if achieved begin to expand, compete with them?. Or would cut root, that threatens always effective accusation of treason, of '' fifth columnists '' (obviously not in those exact terms, only concept) and / or by the same Western intolerance of religious traditions or not Countries such?
 
Could perhaps have been a better and more permanent Evangelization in the Far East: China and Korea, if this had been done by Western monastic orders, simultaneously or in place of the Jesuits.?

It would have been interpreted as a greater threat by Buddhists, a foreign Monastic Order, built monasteries, catechized adepts and if achieved begin to expand, compete with them?. Or would cut root, that threatens always effective accusation of treason, of '' fifth columnists '' (obviously not in those exact terms, only concept) and / or by the same Western intolerance of religious traditions or not Countries such?

No. Not to be mean, but did you read the rest of the thread?

During the 16th century, both China and Korea were overwhelmingly Confucian (~70-90%), and only around 10-20% of the population was Buddhist (as stated earlier), although both were syncretized with Daoism and Legalism as well to a much lesser degree. This was because Buddhism had been heavily persecuted centuries beforehand (most notably during the Tang), as monks had been imprisoned and temples closed down due to corruption, as well as cultural and religious incompatibility. While Buddhism was more popular in Japan, and European missionaries were viewed as foreign versions of Buddhist monks, Christianity was eventually persecuted by Hideyoshi in 1597 for similar cultural reasons, not to mention that Shintō and Confucianism were more widely practiced (although syncretism also occurred). Even the Imjin War, in which monks both fought for their country and served as diplomats after hostilities ceased, did very little to increase Buddhism's popularity within Korea, which had remained minimal since Joseon was established in 1392.

In other words, given that Buddhism had a very minimal presence within both China and Korea for centuries, due to severe persecutions, it would have been virtually impossible for Christianity to fare much better (assuming that the Western religion had somehow managed to take root). The main reason that both countries had been relatively open to the Jesuits (and Catholicism) in the first place was that they had heavily emphasized (Western) scientific thinking, while religious ideology had continued to remain virtually nonexistent (as I stated earlier). I had also specified that Christianity would only make significant headway within Korea if China remained fragmented among at least 10 states for well over a century, leading to extreme social turmoil, or if China officially proclaimed Christianity as the state religion. However, both are essentially ASB for various reasons.
 
Could perhaps have been a better and more permanent Evangelization in the Far East: China and Korea, if this had been done by Western monastic orders, simultaneously or in place of the Jesuits.?

It would have been interpreted as a greater threat by Buddhists, a foreign Monastic Order, built monasteries, catechized adepts and if achieved begin to expand, compete with them?. Or would cut root, that threatens always effective accusation of treason, of '' fifth columnists '' (obviously not in those exact terms, only concept) and / or by the same Western intolerance of religious traditions or not Countries such?

Monastic Order was a big no-no. In fact, the prosecutions in China mentioned above targeted monasteries, temples, and monks, less so against average worshippers.

-----The below is just my pet peeve-----

But I think I have to dispute democracy101's "overwhelmingly Confucian" part. I would rather say that they were "mostly adhering to traditional believes or not particularly religious", rather than "religiously Confucian". There're surely people who holded Confucious as God and the Analects as Bible, but I doubt a big portion of people did. Plus Confucianism is quite awkward as a religion, being Agnostic and avoiding spiritual topics like life and death, instead solely focusing on earthly matters. I would say it behaves more like a hardcore political ideology like Communism or Fascism (no attempt to discredit it, but other ideologies don't have an unified agenda nor penetrate into civilian lives) than a religion.

-----The above is just my pet peeve-----
 
Monastic Order was a big no-no. In fact, the prosecutions in China mentioned above targeted monasteries, temples, and monks, less so against average worshippers.

-----The below is just my pet peeve-----

But I think I have to dispute democracy101's "overwhelmingly Confucian" part. I would rather say that they were "mostly adhering to traditional believes or not particularly religious", rather than "religiously Confucian". There're surely people who holded Confucious as God and the Analects as Bible, but I doubt a big portion of people did. Plus Confucianism is quite awkward as a religion, being Agnostic and avoiding spiritual topics like life and death, instead solely focusing on earthly matters. I would say it behaves more like a hardcore political ideology like Communism or Fascism (no attempt to discredit it, but other ideologies don't have an unified agenda nor penetrate into civilian lives) than a religion.

-----The above is just my pet peeve-----

I mentioned monks and temples in my post above.

Also, I meant that Confucianism was more of a general philosophy than a religion with specific tenets, and that China and Korea were technically agnostic.

I apologize if I didn't make that clear.
 
I mentioned monks and temples in my post above.

Also, I meant that Confucianism was more of a general philosophy than a religion with specific tenets, and that China and Korea were technically agnostic.

I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

Just trying to point out that a monastic order involvement would likely make proselytization harder than without it.

And no hard feelings. Just that it had been a knee-jerk reaction whenever someone talks about "Confucianism is/was the dominant religion in China" after spending all those times in Europa Universalis forums.:eek:
 
Just trying to point out that a monastic order involvement would likely make proselytization harder than without it.

And no hard feelings. Just that it had been a knee-jerk reaction whenever someone talks about "Confucianism is/was the dominant religion in China" after spending all those times in Europa Universalis forums.:eek:

Haha thanks for the clarification. :)
 

scholar

Banned
I meant a fragmented China (10+ states for 100+ years), or a united China (not divided among 2-5) with Christianity as the state religion, which I'm sure I mentioned earlier.
We're going to have some fundamental disagreements on this point. The number states involved in the fragmentation is almost irrelevant. Whatever you could forsee happening in Korea as a result of the civil war with ten states can probably happen with as few as three, if not two. Further, Christianity would not need to be the official religion of China, it would merely have to flourish in the court of the capital where it would have far more immediate connections to the court and elite of Korea.

Lastly, while official religion may be impossible, Kangxi had already made Christianity a religion on par with Buddhism and Daoism shortly before the Rites Controversy, and had earned many genuine religious converts amongst the nobility, and the religion had a particularly strong non-gentry following in Sichuan, Yunan, and Shanghai. Given the number of genuine converts to the religion in China and Japan when there was immediate contact with missionaries who had spent time learning their language and customs, genuine converts could be won in Korea with direct interaction or a direct shift in a converted gentry diaspora to Korea (along with the more immediate suspects of Taiwan, the Philippines, and Southeast Asia).
 
We're going to have some fundamental disagreements on this point. The number states involved in the fragmentation is almost irrelevant. Whatever you could forsee happening in Korea as a result of the civil war with ten states can probably happen with as few as three, if not two. Further, Christianity would not need to be the official religion of China, it would merely have to flourish in the court of the capital where it would have far more immediate connections to the court and elite of Korea.

I mentioned ten states because significant disorder must continue to occur within East Asia as a whole, which not only leads to millions of displaced migrants/refugees, but also allows the European powers to gradually consolidate their influence within China, even if they are generally limited to coastal regions. This level of disorder cannot be sustained with only 2-5 states, as they generally end in stalemates for several decades/centuries, hence the number that I proposed. The Southern Ming is irrelevant because the Qing would wield much more authority over Joseon as long as the state within North China continues to exist, while I had proposed a "state religion" because Korea would have easily continued to evolve along different lines from those of a divided China, similar to Goryeo's development during significant visits/immigration from the Southern Song at the time.

I'm just trying to say that it's very, very difficult to map Chinese developments directly onto Korean ones when the main divergence involves a completely different religion.

Lastly, while official religion may be impossible, Kangxi had already made Christianity a religion on par with Buddhism and Daoism shortly before the Rites Controversy, and had earned many genuine religious converts amongst the nobility, and the religion had a particularly strong non-gentry following in Sichuan, Yunan, and Shanghai. Given the number of genuine converts to the religion in China and Japan when there was immediate contact with missionaries who had spent time learning their language and customs, genuine converts could be won in Korea with direct interaction or a direct shift in a converted gentry diaspora to Korea (along with the more immediate suspects of Taiwan, the Philippines, and Southeast Asia).

The Chinese Rites controversy is something that cannot be easily butterflied away, as I had mentioned earlier, and converting the masses within South China is again unrelated to the relative disinterest among peasants/farmers within the North. Additionally, none of the European visitors visiting for over two centuries (most of whom had been shipwrecked) were particularly interested in Korea for various reasons (mostly trading and geographical) that I had previously stated within other threads. For comparison, the Chinese usually emigrated abroad in mass numbers due to disorder/population pressures because they wanted to settle down in regions (mostly in Southeast Asia) that already had active trading connections. As a result, it would be near impossible for them to head to Korea when the peninsula had remained thoroughly devastated from around 1592-1700, in which entire villages (and some smaller cities) had become depopulated, not to mention that trade within Korea had remained relatively localized until ~1700-50 in terms of overall volume.
 
Last edited:

scholar

Banned
Democracy101, here's the thing. I am not referring to a radically different religion from OTL. I am trying to find a way to shift its focus. One can have an army of reasons why, say, protestantism never caught on in Spain. The entire political climate, the close relationship between Spain and the Papacy, Spain and the Catholic Church, a strong domestic support for the church, little need to embrace a religion that liberates them from the direct control of the church when they already had such independence. One could go one for pages, write an entire series of books, and have a doctors thesis why Protestantism never even really took root there with thousands of different factors that would inhibit or prevent its growth. That does not, however, make it impossible for Spain to become a protestant nation. It simply explains why it did not occur in the past.

The Chinese Rites controversy is a difficult problem to avoid, but it is not a difficult controversy to postpone, nor is it an impossible one to have resolved another way. The entire controversy was birthed by a competition between ecclesiastical factions within the church, in turn spurned on by a greater battle between predominately Spanish Iberian Dominicans and Franciscans, and an initially Portuguese, but later largely French supported Jesuits.

I understand you wanted to table this discussion for a few months, but allow me to address some of your concerns to see if I can at least show you that it is possible.

You mention the need for disorder in the entirety of East Asia as a necessity to break Qing authority over the Joseon. I am less certain. The Qing only needs to be sufficiently distracted and suffer from internal issues in order to break that authority. Further, what you need can be accomplished with fewer states. Power in the North simply needs to be contested by another power. The Mongols were a particular threat to the Qing early on, as were the autonomous princes. Add in a succession crisis and Northern Chinese domination is crushed for years, and possibly for much longer. Even this might be overkill depending on several factors.

You mention the irrelevance of the Southern Ming. This is simply untrue. The Southern Ming court remains highly relevant to this discussion even to its eventual destruction, for it provides a model of evolution in regards to this debate regarding the christianization of China and Korea. Especially since the entire debate is predicated on a different fall of the Southern Ming, coupled with stiffer resistance and a greater number of Christian scholars, generals, and people fleeing the country as it inevitably falls to the Qing. But, should the Qing government face such difficulties as I put forward above, a surviving and powerful Southern Ming might well see a resurgence establishing a stable southern dynasty, perhaps with steady control all the way to Qingdao. The new religion in the court may well become that much more powerful as a result.

You mention that none of the foreigners were interested in Korea until later because of several reasons. I am surprised why you would think that a more successful mission in China would not result in it branching out into what the Chinese court considers its strongest and most faithful vassal, most like them in culture. Or that if the Ming court is failing, that some may not make their way to Korea. You seem to believe that these missions were entirely economic. They weren't, at least not entirely. A great many chinese missionaries risked death, and many of them indeed died, in order to either evangelize the faith or to practice religion with already converted followers. Just a small handful of educated missionaries in places of power with connections to the West radically altered the way China and Japan operated. None went in OTL, but that is easily changed provided the French King desired to send a group of five men there - much like what he did with China, of which only four arrived and each of them rose to great places of prominence in China and started translating texts and bringing them to Europe, increasing interest and desire to send more people to China. Sending a smaller mission to Korea is not impossible, it becomes increasingly more likely the longer the Ming court survives, or the greater and longer their influence lasts in the Qing. Every year that the Rites controversy is postponed, the likelihood of some attention falling to Korea increases.

You mention that Korea's population is depopulated. That is hardly a reason for refugees to avoid the place, in fact it would make it more likely that those in the know would desire to go there. Further, it would make Korea more receptive to attracting skilled craftsmen, able farmers, and Chinese scholars and merchants fleeing China. If northern China is made unstable, far more people will go to Korea if armies are standing in their way preventing them from fleeing south.

You also bring up the argument that the religion being popular in southern china is not relevant because the northern Chinese were uninterested in it. All you would need to do is look at the factors why it became popular in Southern China to see why it did not in Northern China. It was most popular where the Portuguese Jesuits were active, following and supporting the fleeing Ming court. It is also areas where they got the support of converted scholar-gentry, such as the Three Pillars in Shanghai. The Portuguese had no reach in Northern China and were closely tied to the Southern Ming. Macao, in particular, was a major zone along with Sichuan, Guanxi, and Yunnan. Such could not have occurred in OTL because the situations were very different. However, similar activities were started by the French Jesuits and Matteo Ricci. Converts were being won, the court was being courted, and the religion enjoyed very high favor from the Kangxi Emperor. What had happened in Southern China under the Ming was starting to happen again in the Qing, the same reasons that made the religion amenable to the Southern Chinese were also what made the religion amenable to the Northern Chinese and what had made it amenable to the Japanese, and what would make it amenable to the Koreans had there been significant interest in bringing the religion to them. But as it was starting, as it was gaining popularity, as the Koreans were beginning to take interest (and created the first encyclopedia that was filled with Christian thought and principles) and the Silhak movement was beginning to form and shape, everything went to ruin under the later rein of Kangxi and his successor over the Chinese Rites controversy.
 

Again, this is pretty thorough, and I feel that this discussion has been dragging on for much longer than it should have been.

If a unified China successfully embraces Catholicism, and the Chinese Rites controversy is entirely avoided, I could theoretically see a different Korea more open to Christianity that it had been IOTL. I've stated this in a roundabout way in previous posts, although I had also mentioned that it would be extremely unlikely for the pieces to fit together.

However, I will say that if the Qing's position becomes relatively unstable within North China, which would be necessary for it to have much looser (indirect) control over Joseon, Korea could theoretically invade Manchuria and collaborate with the Southern Ming in order to conquer the Qing. While this had been planned IOTL, even before the Qing eventually broke through the Great Wall in 1644, it never came to fruition because of the Qing's relative stability within China, while Korean officials covertly informed the Qing court for fear of retaliation, and Hyojong died in the middle of planning. If the Qing had been destroyed due to a major two-front war, I could see the "restored" Ming promoting Christian theology, then transmitting them to Korea. However, Joseon would have been forced to return any temporary gains in Manchuria back to the Ming, while its treasury would have been bankrupt at least twice over due to four-five major wars and a coup within 60-70 years, which would have been unprecedented in Korean history. In this scenario, Korea would have been thoroughly exhausted to the point where the Ming could have simply waltzed into the peninsula without major resistance, making the OP moot.

Even if Korea still managed to somehow remain independent under a restored Ming, the extreme economic and social cost associated with decades of continuous conflicts could very well lead to extreme political instability, if not an outright civil war within the peninsula, essentially turning Korea into a "failed state" for at least several "long" decades.

In any case, the Korean population had essentially recovered IOTL by around 1700-50 or so, while the population would have at least doubled by 1800. Both were possible because numerous far-flung villages had gradually managed to build up their populations over 100-150 years. If Chinese refugees had managed to arrive within Korea, they would have been limited to Hanseong (Seoul) and a handful of coastal cities, as any "missionaries" would have to spend weeks, if not months, traveling from remote village to village, deterring them from traveling much further inland. Given that the peninsular population would have eventually recovered within 50-100 years with or without Chinese migrations, which would have collectively numbered far less than 100,000, the vast majority would have settled within the capital anyway, as workers within villages were not needed (rather the opposite, as refugees had fled en masse from urban regions), even after major devastation. A continuing stable influx from abroad would also have severely exacerbated social tensions over the long run, mostly due to potential concerns over "elitism," and would have become a major thorn within Qing policy after Chinese unification.

Southern Ming pirates operating within the East China Sea would also have evoked strong memories of the wokou for Koreans, and given that the vast majority of maritime routes directly linked South China to Southeast Asia (along with Japan and the Ryukyus), while virtually none were linked to Korea, it would theoretically make much more sense for masses of Chinese emigrants to settle within the Ryukyus (and possibly Japan, if the situation was extremely dire), than for them to gradually make their way to Korea through relatively open sea. Specifically, while a variety of Southern Song individuals (and the navy) did make their way to Goryeo centuries earlier, the vast majority were visitors, not settlers, while the vast majority had emigrated elsewhere, and more Goryeo diplomats had made their way to the Song for over two centuries due to geopolitics.

So yes, a "Christian Korea" is theoretically possible, but it would come at a very, very great cost for the Korean populace as a whole.

EDIT: During the Japanese, Jurchen, and Manchu invasions, the devastation within the capital alone was so severe that all of the five main palaces suffered significant losses, and the main one (Gyeongbokgung) was so thoroughly sacked that it was entirely abandoned for over two centuries. As a result, another war would have destroyed Joseon entirely.
 
Last edited:
Top