AH: Turn Stoicism into a Religion

You've given instances in which the word "worship" was used, but this is not the same thing as explicit worship like how Christians worship God.

When Christians recite "Our Father," they're also functionally worshiping the Son and the Holy Spirit. If Daoists make offerings to the Three Pure Ones, they're worshiping the Dao.

They have their own offerings and liturgies, but the offerings are to other gods, not the Tao itself, and the liturgies are meant to help one cultivate the Dao, either through ritual or through worship of gods or communion with the heavens, because these things are things a virtuous person should do.
There is no separation between the Dao and its gods. And liturgies are to those gods (among others, yes).

In the original post on the matter, post #13, the first link is what I said about Lao Tsu mentioning that all things worship the Tao. It is similar to the Stoic concept that all things come from the Logos, and all things are guided by the pneuma, and so humans in order to follow nature must cultivate virtue as virtue is appropriate to man's nature. In this sense they are following the Logos, and one could call this a sort of "worship." But this is not like Christian worship or Worship of Zeus. This is simply following the proper course of action, and for Taoists, this is cultivating the Tao. This is just how the word was translated though, so other people do say "Worshipping the Tao" but again, they mean it like cultivation of the Tao, not worshipping it like a deity. Can you find any explicit sources that claim people worship the Tao as people Worship Zeus? Or do they merely worship Gods, who come from the Tao, as all things do? People Worship gods because this is the thing a Virtuous man should do, and because certain gods remind us and help us cultivate certain aspects of virtue, such as health or wisdom.
You are assuming that the Daoists perform worship in a way dissimilar to Christians or religious persons in general. Regardless of whether Daoist worship is similar to Stoic worship, I already have pointed out references to worshiping the Dao. You haven't referenced anything.
Except they're not. The worship of gods is to help one cultivate the Dao, or "worship" it, not to worship the Dao itself like a god.
No, the worship of the gods is to get what the petitioner requests, whether it is good harvests, immortality, sons, or cultivation of the Dao. Where are you getting your information on Daoism?

EDIT: Edited for format.
 
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When Christians recite "Our Father," they're also functionally worshiping the Son and the Holy Spirit. If Daoists make offerings to the Three Pure Ones, they're worshiping the Dao.

That would be because God is our Father. When they say "Our Father" they don't mean the "Father" part of the trinity, they mean God as an entirety, so of course they're worshipping the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Worshipping the Dao though? I don't see it and I see no evidence of if. You like to keep talking about your sources, but I've explained those. Lao Tsu refers to things worshipping the Tao as performing their function, or broadly following it. To "worship" the Tao is to exist, but more specifically, to want to worship the Tao is to be a Taoist. There's a difference between the word used, and what the word means.

There is no separation between the Dao and its gods. And liturgies are to those gods (among others, yes).

There is a relevant separation between the Tao and the gods, because the Tao is not worshipped like the gods.

You are assuming that the Daoists perform worship in a way dissimilar to Christians or religious persons in general. Regardless of whether Daoist worship is similar to Stoic worship, I already have pointed out references to worshiping the Dao. You haven't referenced anything.

Eastern worship in general is different from Western ideas on the matter, or so I hear. And you can point to all the references you want, but if they don't actually say what you think they say then they don't help your case. If you want some sources, beyond just yours which I think help my case as well, then I can find some. Like here, where it states that in "religious language" following the Dao is called "Worshipping the Dao." Or the simple source, here, which explicitly states that the Tao is "rarely" an object of worship. Or here, which says it isn't. Or here.

The most important thing of note however is that while you've given me sources where the word "worship" is used, you have yet to provide, and I have yet to see myself when I look around, any indication that the Tao is worshipped explicitly. No services to the Tao. No chants to it. No exaltations or ceremonies to it. No, just "worship" in the sense of "following" or living in accord with it. And your insistence that "worshipping the Tao" is done by worshipping gods. Well, I guess, but simply existing is worshipping the Tao in that same sense, so it's not a very strong case.
 

I don't have a numerical value for how often the Dao itself was worshiped in comparison to other Daoist deities, but if it was rarely, so be it. Thank you for supporting my argument. Anyways, your sources don't say what you want them to say either. I looked at the article in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which doesn't mention "object of worship", but does say:

Shen Dao's theory (perhaps unwittingly) lays the foundation for Daoism's rejecting the authority of tian in favor of dao.
Tian, or heaven, is an object of worship. And my sources say:

Then again there are twenty-five kinds of people who can be caused to become ordained monks or nuns:

1. Those whose families over generations have worshiped the Dao and who believe and delight in the divine law of the scriptures.
2. Those who themselves over several lives have worshiped the Dao and who believe and delight in the divine law of the scriptures.
3. Those who in this body actively worship the Dao and who believe and delight in the divine law of the scriptures.
...
10. Those who are singleminded and sincere towards the Dao.
Alright, I'll just leave this debate. Sure, maybe when people worship the Dao, they really mean "don't worship the Dao," but I'll stop arguing, so that no more basic English words have to get their definitions twisted.

EDIT: The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a long article about how Daoism (philosophically) is arguably pantheistic, so clearly, there's some element of divinity, which is fine, since I've said the Dao is not a god, so Daoism isn't supposed to be theistic.
 
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