AH Question: Demographics and Cultural Development during the High Middle Ages

I saw this map recently, and it got me thinking about this question, specifically with regard to the Balkans, but also to atleast Europe in general. At what point did fixed ethnicities and cultures really start to form in a way that their prospect for endurance was likely. For example, on this map, is it possible for all of the people of Dushan's Serbia to identify as Serbs and speak Serbian if the general extent of these frontiers could somehow be maintained? Would the identity of this state remain clearly Serbian if it ran as far south as Athens and the Morea?
Byzantine_empire_1355.jpg
 
I remember reading about the borders of medieval Poland/Germany and how the populace adopted the dominant ethnicity, and how this swapped around several times

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I remember reading about the borders of medieval Poland/Germany and how the populace adopted the dominant ethnicity, and how this swapped around several times

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

But was this true in general elsewhere on the continent?
 
I saw this map recently, and it got me thinking about this question, specifically with regard to the Balkans, but also to atleast Europe in general. At what point did fixed ethnicities and cultures really start to form in a way that their prospect for endurance was likely. For example, on this map, is it possible for all of the people of Dushan's Serbia to identify as Serbs and speak Serbian if the general extent of these frontiers could somehow be maintained? Would the identity of this state remain clearly Serbian if it ran as far south as Athens and the Morea?

The nationalities in Europe, at least in christianized Europe, are fixed for the western part between the VIII century and the X. We could see the appearance of differences betweens Franks, "Romans" (Aquitains or Italians), Hispani, etc.
As the germanic "nations" have more coherance and as the germanic languages formed themselves sooner than the roman ones, you have many determined ethnic groups in N-W Europe in the middle of IX, the romans in the late IX critically because of the turmoil in Mediterranean.

In Central Europe, the invasions of Suebi and Magyars, quite well coherant groups, help forming sort of "proto nation-states".

In the Balkans, it's far more complicated. The distinction between "Romans" and Greeks appears quite late, in the XIII and the shock of 1204 had something to do with that. After the appearance of separate states referencing to ethnies (the angevine Kingdom of Arania, by exemple), the situation is more clear, but the newcomers tend to identify themselves more according the territory (b.e., Macedonians, Thracians, Bulgars) than as a new people.
So, if it was expending toward West, the Duckas' Serbia could have made the Croats or the Dalmats referencing themselves as Serbs, it's more difficult to see it happening much bigger than OTL, in these borders.
 
Dušan's empire collapsed almost immediately after his death. Even if it stuck around, the majority of his population would be Greek-speaking, so I'd imagine it would a Hellenization of the Serbs, not the other way around.
 
Dušan's empire collapsed almost immediately after his death. Even if it stuck around, the majority of his population would be Greek-speaking, so I'd imagine it would a Hellenization of the Serbs, not the other way around.

Would the Latin Empire of Constantinople have naturally hellenized had it endured?
 
Probably only if the ruling classes abandon Catholicism and embrace Orthodoxy, which is rather unlikely within a short time frame.
At the contrary i think that a lasting Latin Empire would lead to a catholicisation of its population, maybe in the form of a greek rite of roman church, a sort of Florence's Council that succeded.

Of course, it's an hard job to do, but less than a lasting Latin Empire.
 
At the contrary i think that a lasting Latin Empire would lead to a catholicisation of its population, maybe in the form of a greek rite of roman church, a sort of Florence's Council that succeded.

Of course, it's an hard job to do, but less than a lasting Latin Empire.

True. I guess I'm curious in general how long it takes for a Balkan ethnic identity to really take root in or near the cities of the region, especially.
 
True. I guess I'm curious in general how long it takes for a Balkan ethnic identity to really take root in or near the cities of the region, especially.

It's something of a complex question. Things like religion and language, which ethnicity is often built on, can take a long time to take route, but ethnic identity can develop very quickly. Slavomacedonian identity, as distinct from Serb or Bulgarian, happened over a few decades. The same is true of Bosniaks being distinct from Croats and Serbs, although the religious roots it was based on obviously took centuries. Generally war and subjugation by another group will allow people to very quickly feel separate.

Ethnogenesis also happens more later in history, as you really need modern communication methods, common languages & institutions and migration to have a large enough cultural space for dispersed towns and villages to feel as one.
 
It's something of a complex question. Things like religion and language, which ethnicity is often built on, can take a long time to take route, but ethnic identity can develop very quickly. Slavomacedonian identity, as distinct from Serb or Bulgarian, happened over a few decades. The same is true of Bosniaks being distinct from Croats and Serbs, although the religious roots it was based on obviously took centuries. Generally war and subjugation by another group will allow people to very quickly feel separate.

Ethnogenesis also happens more later in history, as you really need modern communication methods, common languages & institutions and migration to have a large enough cultural space for dispersed towns and villages to feel as one.

So is it realistic with a POD as late as the fourteenth century to have the peoples of Albania and Northern Greece identify as Serbs and mostly speak Serbian?
 
So is it realistic with a POD as late as the fourteenth century to have the peoples of Albania and Northern Greece identify as Serbs and mostly speak Serbian?

Of course, it's plenty possible. Without Constantinople, I doubt Greek would hold much prestige in a Serbian Empire and depending on how devastating the conquest of Albania and northern Greece is, Serbian can easily take hold as a "prestige" language and over time, the population would linguistically and culturally assimilate to the point that they are considered Serbs.
 
Of course, it's plenty possible. Without Constantinople, I doubt Greek would hold much prestige in a Serbian Empire and depending on how devastating the conquest of Albania and northern Greece is, Serbian can easily take hold as a "prestige" language and over time, the population would linguistically and culturally assimilate to the point that they are considered Serbs.

I would argue the same, but wonder if the centuries-long Greek domination could not be undone short of post World War II-type forced removals.
 
I would argue the same, but wonder if the centuries-long Greek domination could not be undone short of post World War II-type forced removals.

I don't think you would need to do population transfers. Once the Byzantine Greek nobility has been replaced by Serbians, it'll become an important incentive for the peasantry to at least know how to speak in Serbian. And it's likely some Serbs would end up migrating to northern Greece and Albania.
 
I don't think you would need to do population transfers. Once the Byzantine Greek nobility has been replaced by Serbians, it'll become an important incentive for the peasantry to at least know how to speak in Serbian. And it's likely some Serbs would end up migrating to northern Greece and Albania.

So, to have Slavic dominance of the northern Aegean coast and of Epirus, a switch of the landed class followed by migrations southward by peasants and townspeople would be sufficient to overwhelm the previous linguistic majority in these areas?
 
So, to have Slavic dominance of the northern Aegean coast and of Epirus, a switch of the landed class followed by migrations southward by peasants and townspeople would be sufficient to overwhelm the previous linguistic majority in these areas?

Eventually, yes. Granted it's not like everyone would be speaking Serbian but Greek and Albanian would be a lot more marginalized in the sort of scenario that you're looking for.
 
Eventually, yes. Granted it's not like everyone would be speaking Serbian but Greek and Albanian would be a lot more marginalized in the sort of scenario that you're looking for.

Fair point. I think that it's also safe to consider that all of the languages concerned could be impacted in terms of vocabulary by the alterations in settlement patterns and balance of power considerations among the states in the region?
 
I would point the difference between Serbian dominion in all middle Balkan and the serbization of this region.

The Serbs would indeed likely migrate, forming pockets of population at least at the crosspoint and major strategic places (i would see rather well a Serbian Macedonia up to sea by exemple, or the replacment of the Albanian population of Attic by a Serb one).

But Albanian and Greek ethnogenesis was quite finished at this time, critically when both Greece and Albania was defined as territory as well (Greece as the peninsula beyond Macedonia, and Albania as more or less the angevine Kingdom of Albania). In these places the Serbian acculturation would be far more difficult and would depend of 1)the length of a Serb Kingdom 2)the influance of italian states in Greece and Albania (tentatives of creating pupper-states by exemples) 3)the resistance of local notables or lords
 
I would point the difference between Serbian dominion in all middle Balkan and the serbization of this region.

The Serbs would indeed likely migrate, forming pockets of population at least at the crosspoint and major strategic places (i would see rather well a Serbian Macedonia up to sea by exemple, or the replacment of the Albanian population of Attic by a Serb one).

But Albanian and Greek ethnogenesis was quite finished at this time, critically when both Greece and Albania was defined as territory as well (Greece as the peninsula beyond Macedonia, and Albania as more or less the angevine Kingdom of Albania). In these places the Serbian acculturation would be far more difficult and would depend of 1)the length of a Serb Kingdom 2)the influance of italian states in Greece and Albania (tentatives of creating pupper-states by exemples) 3)the resistance of local notables or lords

Would this be true in the thirteenth century as well, before Anjou Albania?
 
Top