AH Project: CP Victory Once and For All

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
And this. But Kaiserreich is still far more ASB than anything we could post.
The absurdities in Kaiserreich (regarding Europe) is pretty much a) the French syndie/ nationalist split, b) Austria made a loose unstable federation (heck Austria will be a problem, a huge one down the line, but something about all these autonomous parts just feel wrong) and of course c) Britain is Syndie. However the real KR ASBs are outside Europe.

As I see a early German victory (because face it, early war was when Germany could win):

Germany:
1. Annexation of Belgian Congo
2. Annexation of French Central African Colonies
3. Minor annexations in Lorraine to strengthen the German defence line
4. Annexation of Luxemburg and minor concessions in Belgium
5. Flemish independence, and Wallonia becoming a French vassal

Austria- Hungary:
1. Annexation of Montenegro, the Sandjak of Novi Pazar and parts of northern Serbia
2. A government handpicked by Vienna for Serbia

Bulgaria:
Annexation of Serbian Macedonia and the Nis area

I doubt the Ottomans join the war, if they do:
They recieve the Kars- Adrahan region back and Russian Armenia. Can perhaps establish a puppet in Azerbaijan.

Eastern Europe:
No Bretsk- Litovsk.
Germany gain Congress Poland, Lithuania and Courland. Puppets are established (Mittelseuropa).
 
Here's a question. Could rump Serbia and Montenegro become dominions? Meaning under Austro-Hungarian sovereignty under the house of Habsburg-Lorraine. It would have control over everything except foreign relations and international travel and commerce.

Would this not only be plausible, but likely?

EDIT: Looking back, we've come a long way since 2007. Read the entire thread for fun if you want to. Some posts will literally make you LOL.
 
Last edited:
Wasn't Alsace German speaking when the French annexed it? I found Germany more imperial than France at this time. Furthermore, Lorraine has been a war aim for Germany since the FPW, only politics prevented it IOTL. I doubt politics can prevent it once more, with a French attack on Germany's border seen as "imminent" in the August of 1914. That is my logic why Germany annexed Lorraine ITTL. Any counter arguments would be greatly appreciated.

How do you mean "a war aim for Germany sice the FPW"?

I've never heard of any German government seeking the rest of Lorraine, apart from Longwy-Briey. Some of the wilder Pan-Germans may have dreamed of it, but that doesn't make it government policy.

I'm pretty sure Fritz Fischer would have mentioned such a plan had it existed, and afaicr he doesn't.
 
How do you mean "a war aim for Germany sice the FPW"?

I've never heard of any German government seeking the rest of Lorraine, apart from Longwy-Briey. Some of the wilder Pan-Germans may have dreamed of it, but that doesn't make it government policy.

I'm pretty sure Fritz Fischer would have mentioned such a plan had it existed, and afaicr he doesn't.

I don't see war aims as part of a nation's official policy. I see it as the fantasies of politicians. Take America for example. There were war aims to annex all of Mexico by many Congressmen, but that wasn't America's official policy, nor did it happen (I concede this point, that it is possible that it is not an assured thing* just because it is a war aim). By my logic (which obviously may not be yours), you agree with me, that it was a war aim by the Pan-Germans.

But this is only one point. I listed several more.

I can't see Germany not annexing Lorraine, TBH. You say because of language they wont, right? Then why didn't France have a problem with annexing the Alsatians? Besides, Germany in 1915 was far more stable than France in 1918, especially since ITTL they won at the Battle of the Marne, which is when OTL's Germany started going downhill because they lost that battle, or so says the sources I have read.

*If you are an expert or specialist on the subject, enlighten me why it is not realistic, even given the points I mentioned earlier. Just know that I am not adamant on the issue, as I want the most realistic CP victory possible. I may budge, but as of now I can't see them not annexing all of Lorraine.

New Map



  • Poland's eastern border is fixed, Kholm Governorate still part of Russia.
  • The Ottoman Empire made the Najd and Jebel Shammar protectorates immediately after the war. This may change once the Ottoman Empire stabilizes itself.
  • AH made Dominions out of Serbia and Montenegro
  • Edited in what I think Mittelafrika would look like
  • Gave Tunisia to Italy
  • made Baltic Duchies to be in personal union with Germany
  • Romania enters the war on the CP side to quickly snag Bessarabia.

All of these but the first are temporary changes. They may obviously be altered.

CPV1.png

CPV1.png
 
In this world, Germany is victorious on the Marne. And I will stop there. There is no specific order to these questions.

How long will it be before France falls?


At least a year, probbly longer. I would forecast the war lasting until 1916/17. Even if the German army took Paris, I don't see how they could have held because by that point they would have been stretched extremely thin and their armies would be exhausted. A German victory on the Marne does not overcome the basic problem that Germany did not have as many divisions as it expected to carry out its plan (whose name I can never spell)

Will the UK declare an armistice with Germany soon after France?


Yes but they will probably try and ensure Germany does not directly annex the coast of Belgium or France.

How long can the Russians withstand the full force of the CP (sans Ottomans, maybe)?

Not long and that is assuming Russia would see any benefit to fighting a war without France and Britain supporting them for any length of time.

What will the Germans annex of France/Belgium proper?

They'll take what is left of Lorraine from France and probably a chunk of Belgium (the Meuse would make a good frontier) and puppet the rest. I suspect however annexing the Belgian coast would be ruled out in any settlement with Britain.

Will German terms be so harsh on Russia in an earlier victory (IE, no Brest-Litovsk)?

Not Brest-Litovsk harsh but certainly tough; Poland would almost certainly get removed from Russian influence along with possibly parts of the Baltic state. This would serve the purpose for the Germans of creating a buffer zone between them and Russia. This of course does depend on how well the Germans do in the war overall.


What would be the Ottoman annexations from Russia?

Probably none. Taking on any more territory would strain the Ottoman Empire past breaking point as would keeping an eye on any puppet states they gain.


Who would get Libya?

Depends on which side Italy joins. If Italy stays neutral or joins Germany, then it keeps Libya. It foolishly joins the Entente, then it will lose Libya. The most likely people to get it our the Germans, although I reckon they would pretend it is a puppet of the Ottoman Empire at first.
 
I don't see war aims as part of a nation's official policy. I see it as the fantasies of politicians. Take America for example. There were war aims to annex all of Mexico by many Congressmen, but that wasn't America's official policy, nor did it happen (I concede this point, that it is possible that it is not an assured thing* just because it is a war aim). By my logic (which obviously may not be yours), you agree with me, that it was a war aim by the Pan-Germans.

None of this means the rest of Germany (especially those who decide what gets to be annexed) wanted the rest of Lorraine.

I can't see Germany not annexing Lorraine, TBH. You say because of language they wont, right? Then why didn't France have a problem with annexing the Alsatians?

The Alsatians live in a region France lost in the Franco-Prussian war: Alsace. If you don`t know, losing this region and Moselle was something the French fumed over in the years between the Franco-Prussian war and WWI and getting it back was one of France`s major reasons for starting WWI.

A better comparison to the Germans annexing the rest of Lorraine would be the French outright annexing the Rheinland.
 
None of this means the rest of Germany (especially those who decide what gets to be annexed) wanted the rest of Lorraine.



The Alsatians live in a region France lost in the Franco-Prussian war: Alsace. If you don`t know, losing this region and Moselle was something the French fumed over in the years between the Franco-Prussian war and WWI and getting it back was one of France`s major reasons for starting WWI.

A better comparison to the Germans annexing the rest of Lorraine would be the French outright annexing the Rheinland.

The two aren't comparable. It was a French War aim, at least so thought the German politicians, however, the Rhineland back then had about 10 times more people than Lorraine. German politicians would, and I assume, want to push the land border as far back as reasonably possible (meaning all of Lorraine), in order for the French to never go for this aim... again.

In the minds of the Germans.

  • France was responsible for the Napoleonic Wars.
  • France was the aggressor in the Franco-Prussian War.
  • France was seen as preparing for war against Germany in the August of 1914.
There were many reasons to take the territory. I am going to work for 10 hours now. I will think more about the subject then, instead of doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Maybe I will agree with you by the end of the day.
 
The two aren't comparable. It was a French War aim, at least so thought the German politicians, however, the Rhineland back then had about 10 times more people than Lorraine. German politicians would, and I assume, want to push the land border as far back as reasonably possible (meaning all of Lorraine), in order for the French to never go for this aim... again.

So you assume, without any material evidence supporting it. The biggest problem with your assumption is that the rest of Lorraine was ethnically, culturologically and linguistically French for generations. Germany annexing it whole would mean it either has to rule over a population completely hostile to it or force the French out of Lorraine and re-populate it with Germans.

There were many reasons to take the territory.

List them all, if you would be so kind.

Saying war aims isn't enough.

The war aims of several Pan-Germans are not the war aims of Germany. Give me some actual evidence that the Kaiserreich intended to annex it.
 
Yes, the Republic of Turkey was able to hold this territory, so would the Ottomans.

Ah sorry I must have been thinking of somewhere further east. I apologise.

With regards to Lorraine, I think the Germans would take it simply to try and put a line under the issue; 'both Lorraine and Alsace are fully in German hands so therefore the issue is closed' or something along those lines.
 
With regards to Lorraine, I think the Germans would take it simply to try and put a line under the issue; 'both Lorraine and Alsace are fully in German hands so therefore the issue is closed' or something along those lines.

This doesn`t sound convincing at all. If this was actually done, it would not only fail to solve the issue, it would create a number of other, new problems. Of course, someone should first prove the whole of Lorraine was an actual war aim of the Kaiserreich.
 
This doesn`t sound convincing at all. If this was actually done, it would not only fail to solve the issue, it would create a number of other, new problems. Of course, someone should first prove the whole of Lorraine was an actual war aim of the Kaiserreich.

Never underestimate the ability of the Kaiserreich to come up with half-baked solutions to problems like that; may I point you to the Zinnermann Telegram
 
Ever since I was told to find sources and more reasons as to why Germany would annex the rest of Lorraine, I've have been doing massive amounts of research. And although I found what I was looking for, the number or sources were insufficient and I found more sources stating the contrary to my belief that Germany would annex the land.

I found sources such as this:

A confidential German document, which has recently been published by the Comite des Forges de France and quoted in the Iron Age, 1 gives some idea of the attitude of steel producers in Germany toward the control of the sources of iron ore, both from an industrial and a military standpoint, and also shows the cause of the apprehension naturally felt in France with regard to furnishing the raw material for German iron and steel manufacture. This document, which was probably written at a time when Germany was confident of a victory, emphasizes the determination of that country to take possession of the French mines, considered imperatively necessary in order to insure the future prosperity of the iron and steel industry of Germany. After pointing out that for many years Germany has been obliged to depend on other countries for a part of its supply of ore it remarks that "our mining base enlarged by the addition of Briey and Longwy would insure for a century the future of our iron industry, and would hence insure also our retention of the place which, with the help of the iron ore of Lorraine, we have conquered during the last ten years among the iron-making countries of the world, at the cost of hard struggles with Great Britain." It also states that the greater the iron and steelmaking resources of a country the more it is dreaded as an adversary. It then goes on to say that the displacement of the Lorraine frontier is absolutely indispensable for the safety of the German Empire in the case of a future war, and adds further: " All of Lorraine in the hands of Germany would constitute not only a war indemnity and a support for the German fatherland, but also a guarantee of a lasting peace and a gauge for the security of the empire. Our victory gives us the occasion and the right to add to the most vulnerable point of attack on the German Empire a sharp rock against which every enemy assault will be broken. "If this opportunity be neglected, the German people will in a future war be doomed to ruin."

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...oS6KGxs9l02mhA

---

This, to my cause, was not enough.

So here is the new map, with altered Arabia, Central Africa, and Poland.

CPV1.PNG

CPV1.PNG
 
Top