AH Modern Roman Empire

[DominusNovus]

AH Challeng: Modern Roman Empire

Your mission is to create a TL where the Roman Empire continues to this day (it must be able to trace its roots continuously to Augustus). It doesn't have to be large, it could just be Italy (if based around Rome) or Anatolia and Greece (if base around Constantinople).

Easy? Ok, here's your restriction: The United States of America must exist in a recognizable form. IOW, its must be formed from British colonies in North America, it must be a federal democratic republic, its dominant language must be english (though it doesn't have to be exactly OTL's english, it must be, for the most part, understandable), it must extend at least to the Mississippi, etc. It doesn't have to be predominately protestant, but the Americans should have a similar work ethic as in OTL.

This'll make a continuous Italian Empire almost impossible, but a Byzantine Empire is within the realm of possibility. Well, I suppose the Byzantines could reconquer Italy and move the capital back to Rome, but you have to deal with the religious and cultural differences.

 

[DuQuense]

420- Caeser [Different one from OTL] {POD} realizes Everything is going down, decides that as Rome Conquered it once it can do it again. Withdraws Legions from the frountiers [England, Rhine, Balkans,] And uses them to fortify the PO River [goes 3/4 way across Italy anyway]

450- Rome withstands Attilla & Company

475- Capital moved to Naples,

530- Justitian wants to reconquere western Roman Empire, General Bellirusus & Nanse take him out of it- nothing of Value there worth the Cost. instead East Rome turns to strenging its hold on the Levant & Eygpt. Border with Persia.

600- Anglo- Saxons invade England. Battles with King Authur

640- Arab relishious fantics shouting about some New god called Allah, attack the Levant, East Roman Troops decimate them and send them back to the Desert. East Rome occupies Arabian red sea coast, Mecca & Medina.

800- Viking Raids Start About same as OTL

900-Normans settle in north Gaul -Normandy

1050- Charlemange Analouge arises in ?south Gaul, unifies area, Invades Iberia,

1060 " C-A" having unified south Gaul & Iberia, turn his sights on Italia, Bue to never having been invaded & sacked like OTL mast of the old Roman Engineering is still working [Aquaducts, Public Baths Ect.]

1066- William the Conquer. Anolouge

1068- "C-A" having conquered Itailia and captured/killed Caeser, is crowned Caeser, Emporer of the New Roman Empire. [Italia-South Gaul-Iberia] starts rebuilding the old Roman infrastruture in Gaul and Iberia.

1300s- Battles between England/ north Gaul & NRE. NRE Pushes England back to Brittiany Burgandy, Normandy, [Alantic Coast]

1400s- renewed Babbles between NRE And Greater Britian, GB manages to hold most , as NRE is busy with Germany and the Balkans [East Roman Empire]

1450s NRE starts exploring african coast[already controls Morocco-Tunsia] due to ERE controling the Asia trade in the Eastern Mediterian [Eygpt-Levant-Libya]

1500s- NRE blunders into S America, in reponse GB sends out Hudson-Drake analogues finds N america,Colonies started.

1600s-1700s. NRE controls SA, Most of Africa, GB controls NA, lots of Islands, is competing with NRE, Persian empire, ERE, for control over India, China, IndoChina, and Indonesia.

1800s, NA colonies form United Colonies America, [east of mississippi] United Mexican colonies [Mexico & central america] & United Pacifica [Westcoast & great plains.]

1921- GW--GB & Colonies, NRE , East Asian Co-propresperity Sphere, vs ERE, Persia, Greater Russias, China.

 

[DominusNovus]

Looks good, but somehow, I don't think that its likely that so much would still occur much as it did in OTL.

 

[Faeelin]

Looks good, but somehow, I don't think that its likely that so much would still occur much as it did in OTL.

That's funny. Neither is the rise of republicanism, the "protestant work ethic", or an english speaking America.

You can't blame him for giving what you ask.

 

[DominusNovus]

That's funny. Neither is the rise of republicanism, the "protestant work ethic", or an english speaking America.

You can't blame him for giving what you ask.

lol, touche. My apologies if I sounded like an ass (its one of my few flaws ) I was figuring people would go for saving Constantinople, leaving the crusades and 100 years war untouched.

 

[DuQuense]

maps

I even made a map except its to dig to upload ?any one have a Paint subsitute that may downsize files?

 

[Beck Reilly]

in paint, go to "Save As", and save the map as a JPEG file. It downsizes it.

 

[Duncan]

OK, the minimalist solution:

The Donation of Constantine is genuine.

What is the D of C, I hear a few of you cry? It's a mediaeval forgery which claimed that Constantine, on his deathbed, bequeathed temporal power in Italy to the Pope. See http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/donation.html and http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/donatconst.html

Constantine genuinely intends to give the Pope power in Italy. Subsequent Western emperors more or less ignore this, but when Justinian reconquers Italy he finds it convenient to recognisei the Pope as his governor, to maximise local support. When Byzantine power in Italy lapses, the then Pope goes all the way and proclaims himself Western Emperor. Subsequent Popes keep the titles Imperator Caesar Augustus, along with Pontifex Maximus.

Real effects are few, expect that Charlemagne recognises the Pope as Western Emperor and contents himself with being King of the Franks, and Patrician and Magister Militum of the Empire - something like a Western Shogun. Subsequent Carolingian, Ottonian and other OTL-Holy-Roman-Emperors follow suit.

So the Western Roman Empire continues to this day, recognised by all. It's just that it is now restricted to the 0.4 sq km of the Vatican City.

 

[DominusNovus]

OK, the minimalist solution:

The Donation of Constantine is genuine.

What is the D of C, I hear a few of you cry? It's a mediaeval forgery which claimed that Constantine, on his deathbed, bequeathed temporal power in Italy to the Pope. See http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/donation.html and http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/donatconst.html

Constantine genuinely intends to give the Pope power in Italy. Subsequent Western emperors more or less ignore this, but when Justinian reconquers Italy he finds it convenient to recognisei the Pope as his governor, to maximise local support. When Byzantine power in Italy lapses, the then Pope goes all the way and proclaims himself Western Emperor. Subsequent Popes keep the titles Imperator Caesar Augustus, along with Pontifex Maximus.

Real effects are few, expect that Charlemagne recognises the Pope as Western Emperor and contents himself with being King of the Franks, and Patrician and Magister Militum of the Empire - something like a Western Shogun. Subsequent Carolingian, Ottonian and other OTL-Holy-Roman-Emperors follow suit.

So the Western Roman Empire continues to this day, recognised by all. It's just that it is now restricted to the 0.4 sq km of the Vatican City.

Sneaky. Well done.

 

[DuQuense]

New Roman Empire TL MAP

Hopefully heres my map

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

There's an inherent problem with this; I agree, it's impossible with the preservation of the Western Empire, but survival of the East is problemmatic as well.

At first glance, the survival of the Eastern Empire looks good; it occupied the geo-political position the Ottomans later did, so it's tempting to just plug the Byzantines in and end up with a similar world.

The problem is, if the Byzantines survived, it would have to be a pre-Manzikert or Manzikert solution, in which case the Byzantines ARE the Roman Empire, and the Emperor is the supreme authority in Europe. The division between the Churches wont be as great, Russia will develoip completely differently, and even if there is a Reformation, the Catholics will win, as the Ottomans deliberately aided the Protestants by distracting the Hapsburgs every time they were doing well. So, Britain would develop differently, and it's highly unlikely the Americas would have been settled even remotely in the same way.

Would the Rennaisance even have happened? It was the conquest of Constantinople that blew the dying embers of Byzantium across Europe to ignite the modern world.

 

[Faeelin]

Would the Rennaisance even have happened? It was the conquest of Constantinople that blew the dying embers of Byzantium across Europe to ignite the modern world.

Have you fallen through a portal from the 1970's? The idea that the renaissance occurred becaues constantinople fell hasn't been considered true for a long time.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Have you fallen through a portal from the 1970's? The idea that the renaissance occurred becaues constantinople fell hasn't been considered true for a long time.

I don't believe that's true; the earlier view was that the shock of Constantinople's fall jolted something loose in Europe. More recent research has delved into the impact of the arrival of all the Greek scholars in Italy. There is no doubt that new energies were emerging in Italy, but who knows what direction they might have taken?

Likewise, if not for Alexios's call, where might Crusading Zeal have led?

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Have you fallen through a portal from the 1970's? The idea that the renaissance occurred becaues constantinople fell hasn't been considered true for a long time.

And don't take that tone with me or I'll smack you.

 

[MerryPrankster]

The Ottomans may have distracted the Hapsburgs deliberately, but the Byzantines could do the same. Remember, there's no love lost between the Western Church and the Orthodox. However, if the 4th Crusade is eliminated b/c of an earlier POD, a lot of the hate is gone, so that might not necessarily work.

Could the Reformation be successfully repressed? If the Hapsburgs try to viciously exterminate the Protestants, it might backfire. I think there was a good-sized Protestant presence in Poland at one point, but it was theologically out-argued, not exterminated. Perhaps if the Hapsburgs do better against the Protestants, they might give up on the Jesuit order and other means of out-theologizing the Protestants and simply try to wipe them out by military means.

Can the Hapsburgs invade Scandinavia and re-impose Catholicism there? It sounds somewhat beyond their capabilities, though I imagine keeping Germany Catholic is possible. This means that Protestantism will still exist. Plus, should Henry VIII or analogous ruler do the same thing, can they succeed with an Armada-analogue?