AH/map c: Natural borders of France

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Hi there! I challenge you to make present France have the borders shown on the map with any POD!View attachment 288234
 
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You know, although often borders, rivers are not at all "natural" borders.

High mountain chains and seas or oceans are natural border. But the Rhine is no more a natural border than the Danube, the Dniepr, the Nile, the Mississipi, the Yangzi, the Amazon or the Rio Grande.

Rivers are communication axis. And they happen to be an easily objectivable border when chosen as such.


This being said, the most obvious and fastest POD for such a map is Napoleon coming out victorious of the Getmany's campaign of 1813 against the 6th coalition.

Have him actually win a crushing victory at the battle of Lutzen, Bautzen, Dresden. Or even at Leipzig where one of the units OTL almost captured by chance tsar Alexander I to Russia, king Frederick-William III of Prussia, and their staff.

Then, Napoleon can negotiate a general peace treaty where France gains these borders in exchange for :
- renouncing to any presence on the right bank of the Rhine (Holland retains its independance although diminished, the Rhine confederacy is dissolved and replace by the german confederacy as OTL),
- renouncing any presence in Italy (Piedmont is restored although letting Savoy and Nice to France),
- returning to the pre-war border with Spain.

And he gets half of Switzerland as compensation.
 
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Easy enough. The first 4 which come to mind are:
1) Louis XIV accepts the Dutch offer of Peace
2) Louis XV does not give back the Spanish Netherlands
3) Napoleon does not come to power; 2nd coalition is crushed by French armies with no further annexions. No further coalition
4) Napoleon accepts Austria's offer in 1813

More challenging: 'France is a country bordered by rivers. It's natural borders are the Rhine, the Ebre and the Po'
 
Loads of PODs that could result in that. Do you have any preferences for a time period?
DominusNovus the best would be a post war of Austrian succession.
You know, although often borders, rivers are not at all "natural" borders.

High mountain chains and seas or oceans are natural border. But the Rhine is no more a natural border than the Danube, the Dniepr, the Nile, the Mississipi, the Yangzi, the Amazon or the Rio Grande.

Rivers are communication axis. And they happen to be an easily objectivable border when chosen as such.


This being said, the most obvious and fastest POD for such a map is Napoleon coming out victorious of the Getmany's campaign of 1813 against the 6th coalition.

Have him actually win a crushing victory at the battle of Lutzen, Bautzen, Dresden. Or even at Leipzig where one of the units OTL almost captured by chance tsar Alexander I to Russia, king Frederick-William III of Prussia, and their staff.

Then, Napoleon can negotiate a general peace treaty where France gains these borders in exchange for :
- renouncing to any presence on the right bank of the Rhine (Holland retains its independance although diminished, the Rhine confederacy is dissolved and replace by the german confederacy as OTL),
- renouncing any presence in Italy (Piedmont is restored although letting Savoy and Nice to France),
- returning to the pre-war border with Spain.

And he gets half of Switzerland as compensation.
Matteo, thanks for your quick and detailed reply, but what would force Napoleon to make this kind of series of territorial exchanges? Also I wrote natural frontier, because since Louis XIV this was the French aim and they called it like this.
Easy enough. The first 4 which come to mind are:
1) Louis XIV accepts the Dutch offer of Peace
2) Louis XV does not give back the Spanish Netherlands
3) Napoleon does not come to power; 2nd coalition is crushed by French armies with no further annexions. No further coalition
4) Napoleon accepts Austria's offer in 1813

More challenging: 'France is a country bordered by rivers. It's natural borders are the Rhine, the Ebre and the Po'
Thanks fhaessig, could you go more detailed about that Austrian offer of 1813?
 
fhaessig said:
More challenging: 'France is a country bordered by rivers. It's natural borders are the Rhine, the Ebre and the Po'

Richelieu dies ten years later (1652). He is more hardliner than Mazarin and keep the nobles in check. Condé and Turenne never rebel but beat the Spanish again and again. When Richelieu dies, Louis XIV is no longer under regency (14 years old) and Mazarin's influence is lesser. Catalonia and Spanish Netherlands are conquered and the Grand Peace of Brussels (1660) sees both regions integrated into France. The English are no so happy, but they are in the political turmoils of the Restoration and not able to act on the continent. Years later, Louis XIV, still living in the magnificient new Louvre in the heart of Paris, is fully confident in his generals and allows them to push their advance in the Netherlands (1672), effectively pushing the Dutch out of the main league and annexing the States' Land. He refuses to follow the advice of Louvois on the Reaping of the Palatinate, keeping a relatively moderate position vis a vis the Protestant princes, even with the Revocation (1685). The Princess Mary of York does not marry the powerless Prince of Orange, but her cousin Prince Charles II of the Palatinate. When widow in 1685, she comes back to her father's court. When the Protestant opposition seeks a new king to replace their abhored catholic monarch, Mary is the logic choice, but she is a widower of weak character, so the choice goes to her sister. A secret understanding is found with Louis : he will not oppose the deposition of James II and his replacement by Anne and George of Denmark, but the English will not intervene in his next war, the Palatinate succession. In 1688, after a show of force, Elisabeth, the Duchess of Orléans, will keep the Palatinate and Louis will control the various principalities of the left bank of the Rhine. Reneging on his word, Louis still allows James II to recruit and buy weapons in his war in Ireland, in order to keep the British in turmoil. When Charles II of Spain senses his death coming, he wills not his kingdom to the hated French (he took Catalonia !), but to the Austrian Habsburgs. Louis deals with the Emperor : in order to allow a peaceful accession of Charles of Austria, the Grand Dauphin will have the Lorraine and the Savoy lands, the dispossessed Savoy Naples and Sicily and the former Duke of Lorraine the Milanese (BTW, it was more or less the plan of the 1699 British-French talks OTL). When it becomes clear Charles of Spain will inherit Austria (1701), the spanish succession makes its comeback : the first spanish heir not a Bourbon or a Habsburg is Vittore Amedeo of Savoy, King of the Sicilies, descendant of Philip II (dead 1598 !). After an inconclusive war between the Austrians and the French, Vittore Amedeo (who is father in law of both Charles of Austria-Spain and Louis de Bourgogne, the grandson of Louis XIV) is made heir to Spain, but all northern american spanish settlements will go to the French, along with Santo Domingo, while Naples and Sicily will go the Habsburgs (1703). When Louis le Grand died in 1715, he has led his kingdom to new heights in Europe, but the difficulties of managing such a great realm will force changes in the future...
 
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Matteo, thanks for your quick and detailed reply, but what would force Napoleon to make this kind of series of territorial exchanges? Also I wrote natural frontier, because since Louis XIV this was the French aim and they called it like this.

What would force Napoleon to so It is nothing else but common sense. He needed to pay a price to secure his enemies and have them accept a truly lasting peace which would secure France fantastic gained compared to its 1789 borders.

Keeping north Westphalia or Illyria be nonsense for France. They were just pledges taken for the Time of the war.

Keeping Italy under french control with Napoleon as itsking was unbearable to any other european great power. It made France far too powerful and incented all european powers to coalize against France in order to balance It. And anyway even the pro-France italians (I mean in the kingdom of Italy in the northern half of present Italy) hoped that Napoleon would just help them become independant and united.

As for the natural frontier of the Rhine, the label in fact really emerged only in the late 18th century. Its previous mention, dated from 1642, is but a blink and is apocryphal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_borders_of_France

In the 16th and 17th century, France's strategic problem was that It was hemmed in by the Habsburg possessions and that its north-east border was extremely fragile and complicated to defend. It was barely 200 kilometers away from Paris. So the french felt compelled to push back this frontier, to rationalize It and to fortify it. The french then called it the "square meadow" policy, which was designed by Louvois.
 
Easy enough. The first 4 which come to mind are:
1) Louis XIV accepts the Dutch offer of Peace
2) Louis XV does not give back the Spanish Netherlands
3) Napoleon does not come to power; 2nd coalition is crushed by French armies with no further annexions. No further coalition
4) Napoleon accepts Austria's offer in 1813

More challenging: 'France is a country bordered by rivers. It's natural borders are the Rhine, the Ebre and the Po'
The problem there is Switzerland.
 
Well I have always thought the natural borders of France was the Seine and Rhone.

Borders change.

France's official eastern border had long been the Meuse and Rhone river.

Germanic people original southern border originally was Denmark.
 
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