AH: Jianwen keeps his throne; China stays progressive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jianwen_Emperor

Not many have heard of the Jianwen Emperor. The grandson and successor to Hongwu, he continued his grandfather's systematic purging of military men and eunuchs when he ascended the throne in 1398. The future Yongle Emperor, his uncle, was one of them who escaped assassination and toppled him in 1402. Furthermore, Jianwen was supported heavily by the Mandarins, the Confucian scholar-bureaucrats who supported progressive policies like new inventions, raising the standards of living among peasants, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong) When Zhu Di the Yongle Emperor took power so did the eunuchs, and under their selfish policies China would stagnate behind Europe. So what if Zhu Di failed to escape assassination in his stronghold of Beijing, and thus China did not stagnate?
 
You know, wanting to expand China's foreign influence and wanting to build up domestic prosperity aren't necessarily associated policies. I can't say whether either one of them is more likely to lead to societal stagnation, but I agree with the OP in that the latter could better be called "progressive".
 
You know, wanting to expand China's foreign influence and wanting to build up domestic prosperity aren't necessarily associated policies. I can't say whether either one of them is more likely to lead to societal stagnation, but I agree with the OP in that the latter could better be called "progressive".

The problem is that the mandarins - not the eunuchs - stopping the overseas stuff is usually (apparently there are exceptions) what's referred to in regards to China stagnating and being backward - and I'm not sure that we can honestly say that the mandarins were more concerned with domestic prosperity when stopping foreign trade is very relevant to a country's prosperity (even China - if there was no foreign trade of consequence to begin with, why bother making hostile regulations?).

So in this context, I don't agree.
 
There's only one answer, angry Fusang-wankers go back in time and ensure that the Yongle Emperor takes the throne.
 
Fancy treasure ship expeditions are cool and all, but it was never going to lead to colonies or whatever.

It'd be interesting if an ahistorical emperor sought compromise and enacted the balanced 20/20 hindsight policies the paper mentions in the final paragraph.
 
Fancy treasure ship expeditions are cool and all, but it was never going to lead to colonies or whatever.

It'd be interesting if an ahistorical emperor sought compromise and enacted the balanced 20/20 hindsight policies the paper mentions in the final paragraph.

Yeah. The better bet in regards to overseas part is less the big treasure fleets as less restriction of overseas commerce and the navy in general.
 
Oh I know there were never going to be any colonies, but I've seen a few timelines where a Chinese colonial state existed in North America.
 
Fancy treasure ship expeditions are cool and all, but it was never going to lead to colonies or whatever.

It'd be interesting if an ahistorical emperor sought compromise and enacted the balanced 20/20 hindsight policies the paper mentions in the final paragraph.

Why not colonies?

BTW, one contributing reason for the abandonment of fleet building was shortage of naval timbers in the densely settled North China.

Considering 16th century Spain and Portugal were able to control chunks of Malay archipelago halfway around the globe. How about 15th century China exercising real control over parts of Malay archipelago, so as to secure imports of naval and construction timber from the sparsely settled tropical rain forests of Philippines, Kalimantan, Sumatra and New Guinea?
 
Why not colonies?

BTW, one contributing reason for the abandonment of fleet building was shortage of naval timbers in the densely settled North China.

Considering 16th century Spain and Portugal were able to control chunks of Malay archipelago halfway around the globe. How about 15th century China exercising real control over parts of Malay archipelago, so as to secure imports of naval and construction timber from the sparsely settled tropical rain forests of Philippines, Kalimantan, Sumatra and New Guinea?

Not sure the rain forests have the kind of timber desirable for ship building.
 
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