AH: Galla Placidia's child with Atawulf survives; A Gothic Dynasty

I was browsing Wikipedia today when I came upon this article about Atawulf, successor as King of the Visigoths to Alaric the Bold.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ataulf

Apparently, it says that his wife, the famous Roman Empress Galla Placidia, traveled with Atawulf and together had a son named Theodosius, who was to die in infancy IOTL. So what if their child survived into adulthood?

Another thing to consider was how much influence Atawulf would have over his son, especially if he were to survive assassination by the hands of Sigeric in his bath? After all, he did say this once:
At first I wanted to erase the Roman name and convert all Roman territory into a Gothic empire: I longed for Romania to become Gothia, and Athaulf to be what Caesar Augustus had been. But long experience has taught me that the ungoverned wildness of the Goths will never submit to laws, and that without law a state is not a state. Therefore I have more prudently chosen the different glory of reviving the Roman name with Gothic vigour, and I hope to be acknowledged by posterity as the initiator of a Roman restoration, since it is impossible for me to alter the character of this Empire.
So what would've happened if both Athawulf and his son survived to has a lasting impact on the WRE? Could someone be able to write a AH about this?
 
I've also got a question: could the Goths also somehow get into contact with the Eastern Roman Empire as well? I could imagine the Goths establishing themselves elsewhere if Italy is not a perfect place to live (say, the Pannonian Plains). I was also wondering if the Goths would be the analogues to the Vikings and maybe the Finno-Ugorians, Balts and Slavs would be influenced by these Gothic rulers but on a different scale.
 
I think think that if the Goths were a rich powerful kingdom somewhere in central europe they would greatly influence the Slavs and the Balts. They would probably enter into stable trade with Byzantine and become the middle men of Europe.
They already were the prestige Germans in Europe of that time.
 
I could, but I've already got two threads to work on, one of them is a collaborative TL. I don't mind doing this as another collaborative TL. On the other hand, the Goths could establish themselves elsewhere other than in Italy, and like I said, they need to be where they can position themselves. Another thing: which religion would the Goths adopt? And how big could this Gothic Empire get if they come closer to say, Byzantium?
 
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Someone please pick this up

This has great potential as an ATL. Perhaps a few Late Empire fans could collaborate so it would not fall all on one individual to do it all. :D

So I'll start by proposing that the infant Theodosius' death was murder and that the person responsible was the wife/paramour of the same former follower of Atawulf's late enemy Sarus who killed Atawulf in OTL. In this POD the woman is caught prowling about Galla and Atawulf's villa at a time when she had no business being there. Let's say she was some sort of client of Galla's. The woman is "zealously questioned" and gives up everything -- she admits to coming to the villa to kill the child at the behest of her man. Soldiers are sent, the man is apprehended and after prolonged "zealous questioning" he too gives up everything, implicating Sigeric brother of Sarus. A conspiracy is unmasked, heads roll and pikes are adorned with the same.

The takeaway = Atawulf is not assassinated. He purges his retinue of the former followers of Sarus and gets serious about the security of his family. His son Theodosius grows to manhood, marrying one of his maternal cousins in Constantinople @ age 18.

Hero of Canton
 
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Deleted member 67076

This has great potential as an ATL. Perhaps a few Late Empire fans could collaborate so it would not fall all on one individual to do it all. :D

Hero of Canton
I agree, this could be interesting. Its possible he might become a Senator or Governor if he plays his cards right. While obviously he can't become emperor, I could see his son or grandson wearing the purple. He's probably gonna have competition with Ricimer for Germanic power behind the throne

I might use this for my TL if thats alright with the OP
 
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I agree, this could be interesting. Its possible he might become a Senator or Governor if he plays his cards right. While obviously he can't become emperor, I could see his son or grandson wearing the purple. He's probably gonna have competition with Ricimer for Germanic power behind the throne

I might use this for my TL if thats alright with the OP

The boy Theodosius could IMCO easily qualify for Emperor of the Western Roman Empire. He has the blood tie to Theodosius the Great (he's his grandson). That's why I proposed that he ends up married to one of his mother's nieces in the ERE. He will be King of the Goths after his father. It is not a small stretch from there to Emperor of the Whole Damn Thing! :D

Hero of Canton
 
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Deleted member 67076

The boy Theodosius could IMCO easily qualify for Emperor of the Western Roman Empire. He has the blood tie to Theodosius the Great (he's his grandson). That's why proposed that he ends up married to one of his mother's nieces in the ERE. He will be King of the Goths after his father. It is not a small stretch from there to Emperor of the Whole Damn Thing! :D

Hero of Canton
I was talking about Atawulf, but yea the boy could become emperor of both and thus, securing the Goths as allies for the Romans.
 
I was talking about Atawulf, but yea the boy could become emperor of both and thus, securing the Goths as allies for the Romans.

Oops, my bad I missed that.

Glad you agree. This kid's death (Theodosius the Younger) is one of the "too damn bads" of history and hence a perfect POD.

So, how does he come to power? Doubtless has to be blooded in wars with Vandals, Huns, et al and get enough experience with politics and administration both among the Goths and the Romans. IIRC there were no male heirs of the Theodosian line when he was born, so he might be "groomed for the purple" from infancy on.

Hero of Canton
 

Deleted member 67076

Oops, my bad I missed that.

Glad you agree. This kid's death (Theodosius the Younger) is one of the "too damn bads" of history and hence a perfect POD.

So, how does he come to power? Doubtless has to be blooded in wars with Vandals, Huns, et al and get enough experience with politics and administration both among the Goths and the Romans. IIRC there were no male heirs of the Theodosian line when he was born, so he might be "groomed for the purple" from infancy on.

Hero of Canton
Have him rise through the ranks. My idea is to Have Atawulf become a Senator, Governor or Magister Militum with close connections to the throne.
 
Have him rise through the ranks. My idea is to Have Atawulf become a Senator, Governor or Magister Militum with close connections to the throne.

That makes sense, the whole cursus honorum then? Or is that anachronistic by now?

Here's a couple of possible names of the assassin in OTL. -- "Ataulf imprudently accepted into his service a man identified as "Dubius" or "Eberwolf", a former follower of Sarus."

Since Stilicho had been Consul, I see no reason why King Atawulf could not be too. I think Magister Militum of Gaul would be what Atawulf would angle for.

In 415 AD Stilicho has been dead for 7 years and it is some 10 years before the rise of Aëtius. King/Consul/Magister Militum Atawulf could easily bridge that gap of time. Hell, his survival might butterfly away Aëtius which would be the Empire's net loss.

Hero of Canton
 
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The Fair-Haired Boy - Theodosius the Younger - Prince of the Goths & Romans

IIRC Honorius the Worthless of the WRE had no children at all. That makes it not only possible but probable that Honorius would name his sister's eldest son, Prince Theodosius, his heir. Have him marry a cousin to arc the Valentinian-Theodosian Dynasty back in on itself like the Julio-Claudians were fond of doing and we've got a future reunited empire a possibility.

This is why we all love AH!

Hero of Canton
 
So this is the Visigoths we're talking about. My question was referring to the Ostrogoths.

I know, but aren't the Ostrogoths under pressure from the Huns in 415 AD or am I misplacing their location at this point in time?

I was thinking that with their Western Goth cousins sitting pretty in the WRE (King Atawulf is Magister Militum and his son is heir to the throne of both the Goths and WRE), that if they could manage it the Eastern Goths would want to escape impeding Hun vassalage and take refuge in the WRE. Their numbers would dramatically increase the military might of the WRE and make dealing sharply with the Vandals before they get to North Africa a real possibility.

Hero of Canton

P.S. Subscribed!
 
Constantius III must go!

Constantius III is a major threat to this Western Goth Dynasty. In OTL he was Magister Militum of the WRE in 415 AD and made it his business to wreck the possible transfusion of Gothic blood into the ruling dynasty. In OTL Galla Placidia is forced by Honorius to marry him in 417 AD.

So Constantius III has gotta go. But I'm hoping a more gifted writer than me will be willing to put together just how it gets done.

Is this okay with you OP Grouchio?

Hero of Canton
 
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