AH Discussion: Marriages that could've changed history

[ordinarylittleme]

It's an old (alleged) Chinese proverb. Basically, may you live you in exciting times. And since both would have clashed on religion so badly times would have been *very* interesting.

May You Live In Interesting Times – Quote Investigator®

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Oh I know the proverb - I just never heard anyone say "Chinese sense" before

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Their kids would be different, Maria of Viseu survived longer than the OTL Maria Manuela.

That is true - but Eleanor's fertility issues are to be desired...she never conceived in 17 years with Francis

 

[isabella]

That is true - but Eleanor's fertility issues are to be desired...she never conceived in 17 years with Francis

Well, first she was already in her 30s when she married him, second Francis shared rarely her bed and third is likely who Eleanor conceived and miscarried a child in 1532

 

[ike225]

Constantine VIII remarries and gets a male heir. That heir gets educated by Basil and is rather competent. This should largely cancel out the mess the Romans were in the second part of the 11th century

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Constantine VIII remarries and gets a male heir. That heir gets educated by Basil and is rather competent. This should largely cancel out the mess the Romans were in the second part of the 11th century

Who's the mother? I feel like that'd be important

 

[FalconHonour]

Elizabeth I marries Robert Dudley after Amy Robsart dies in 1560. If they married in 1561, Elizabeth would be 28, old for marriage, but not too old to have a couple of kids. Which would put the House of Dudley on the throne and butterfly away any plots in favour of Mary, Queen of Scots/the Union of the Crowns...

 

[RedKing]

One marriage that could have changed history is Edward of Westminster to Elizabeth of York if Edward IV had to and if both sides were willing to do it.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Elizabeth I marries Robert Dudley after Amy Robsart dies in 1560. If they married in 1561, Elizabeth would be 28, old for marriage, but not too old to have a couple of kids. Which would put the House of Dudley on the throne and butterfly away any plots in favour of Mary, Queen of Scots/the Union of the Crowns...

She didn't do that IOTL because he was thought to have killed her

 

[isabella]

One marriage that could have changed history is Edward of Westminster to Elizabeth of York if Edward IV had to and if both sides were willing to do it.

That would require: a) Westminster living and no Lancastrian invasion and b) Edward IV having no surviving son (meaning who Elizabeth would remain her father’s heiress)

 

[ordinarylittleme]

That would require: a) Westminster living and no Lancastrian invasion and b) Edward IV having no surviving son (meaning who Elizabeth would remain her father’s heiress)

But how would you butterfly the Lancastrian invasion, and why would Westminster consent to this?

 

[Lascaris]

The marriage of Andronikos Palaiologos and Isabelle Villehardouin had been proposed in the 1260s and actually came pretty close to happening. If it does it effectively reincorporates peacefully the principality of Achaea to the Byzantine empire and changes the dynamics of the fighting against Charles of Anzou allies in Greece to Michael VIII favour, what was the strongest local opponent is now in his side. For good measure you might have affected the battle of Tagliacozzo William with 400 Achaean knights was on the side of Charles and his advice supposedly affected the latter's tactics.

 

[FalconHonour]

She didn't do that IOTL because he was thought to have killed her

Yeah, I know. But if Amy had died of an obvious illness? 🤷‍♀️

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Yeah, I know. But if Amy had died of an obvious illness? 🤷‍♀️

Now that would be fun. She can't use her hand in marriage as a bargaining chip anymore, so what will she use instead? And what happens to her legacy, plus, did she have any fertility issues?

 

[RedKing]

That would require: a) Westminster living and no Lancastrian invasion and b) Edward IV having no surviving son (meaning who Elizabeth would remain her father’s heiress)

Oh I agree, I’d imagine Edward + a few Lancastrian nobles surviving the Readeption and Elizabeth Woodville pregnancy with an alt daughter rendering her incapable of becoming pregnant again would he needed for the match to happen.

 

[mattep74]

Proposed marriage between crown prince(later king XIV) Eric Vasa and Queen Elizabeth. According to mostly biased Swedish sources he was one of the first suitors and is regarded to have been in front of the line of suitors.
If the marriage had gone through then England and Sweden would be in a personal union. Unfortunally it will also mean that Eric will fall into his madness as the king of two countries and that Elizabeth have to deal with the uprising in Sweden by Erics sibblings.
If this works out it will change the events of Europe a great deal. England will now have to orient some towards the north and Sweden will be part of the colonization in North America. Denmark will feel threatened and seek alliance with France

 

[ike225]

Who's the mother? I feel like that'd be important

A Dalassenos or so. One of the Anatolian noble families that was very loyal to the Macedonian dynasty and had a powerbase in eastern Anatolia/Antioch.

 

[FalconHonour]

Now that would be fun. She can't use her hand in marriage as a bargaining chip anymore, so what will she use instead? And what happens to her legacy, plus, did she have any fertility issues?

Her children? Or Robert's family? Obviously we'll never know whether she had fertility issues, but the Dudleys were certainly fertile enough...

And perhaps with a more secure succession, Elizabeth might be bolder about being a Protestant Counterweight to the Spanish, thus being a bigger influence on the Continent as well?

 

[Rafi_T]

If I may both engage in ASBs and Napoleonic favoritism:

Napoleon Bonaparte: Marries Desiree Clary (1795) (who gives him multiple children). To give himself legitimacy, he divorces her and marries María Isabella of Spain (April 1801). (Desiree Clary later marries Mathurin-Léonard Duphot on the 31st of December, 1797)

Lucien Napoleon marries Maria Luisa of Spain (IOTL, Napoleon insisted upon the match, and it became a big point of contention between the brothers)

Prince Napoléon Bonaparte (Jérôme) and Princess Mary Adelaide of Cambridge

Napoléon François Joseph Charles Bonaparte + Catherine Pavlovna of Russia (1808) - Their son (we know him as Napoleon II IOTL) marries Princess Sophie of Bavaria (Yes, the father is named after the son ITTL, truly something worthy of Inception)

Second son of Napoleon and Anna Pavlona of Russia

Third son of Napoleon marries Marie Louise of Austria (Yes, ITTL, one of Napoleon's sons marries what IOTL was his mother. That's how big the age gap was, which is pretty gross IMO)

Fourth son of Napoleon and Princess Caroline Augusta of Bavaria (ITTL, Napoleon has a son for every potential/speculated marriage match he was offered)

Fernando de Asturias (Fernand VII) + Charlotte Bonaparte (First daughter of Lucien Bonaparte)

Ferdinand III of Tuscany + Charlotte Bonaparte (First daughter of Lucien Bonaparte) (ITTL, they're identical tins/cloned/whatever)

Napoleon III + Princess Adelheid of Hohenlohe-Langenburg (Niece of Queen Victoria + Mother-in-law of Wilhelm II)

Napoleon III (brother/clone) + Princess Carola of Vasa

Napoleon II (brother/clone) + Eugénie de Montijo

For non-Napoleonic marriages

Constantine IV and Rotrude (Daughter of Charlemagne)

Charlemagne and Irene

Charles II of Spain and Infanta Isabel Luisa of Portugal

William Seymour and Lady Arbella Stuart

Queen Elizabeth I and Robert Dudley (1559) (He avoids the rumors ITTL, and Elizabeth is happy, and as such perhaps Lady Katherine Grey would be allowed to succeed to the throne as was intended by Henry VIII in his will [assuming Elizabeth still doesn't have kids])

Ivan Ivanovich (son of Ivan the Terrible) and Virginia Eriksdotter (daughter of Eric XIV of Sweden)

Frederick the Great and Maria Theresa of Austria

Prince Frederick of Prussia (1794–1863) and Princess Charlotte of Wales

Miguel I of Portugal + Maria II of Portugal (Marriage by proxy since she was 7 years old when this was proposed in 1826) (Combined with the following match, it could cement an Iberic Union for at least a few decades)

Pedro V of Portugal/Prince Leopold/Infante Enrique + Isabella II of Spain (Either one is cool, though Pedro V is the coolest option due to the potential for another Iberic Union)

Archduke Maximilian and Princess Maria Amélia of Brazil (Maybe they have kids, and it would give him more legitimacy as Emperor of Mexico since his bride would be Latin-American)

Archduke Ludwig Viktor of Austria and Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil (Perhaps it could help Brazil keep its monarchy and avoid the subsequent instability)

Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and Avondale and Princess Margaret of Prussia (Always nice to see friendlier Anglo-German relations)

Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria and Princess Hélène of Orléans (Always interesting to see an Franco-Austrian alliance)

 

[Wendell]

Queen Victoria falls for (the would-be in OTL) Christian IX of Denmark at her inaugural ball. This takes him out of the running for becoming King of Denmark and likely prevents his OTL son (who won't exist) from becoming King of the Hellenes as the 1832 London Protocol is what kept The Duke of Edinburgh (who also won't exist here) from ruling. Greece in OTL. Interestingly, this arguably leaves Frederick William of Hesse-Kassel well positioned to inherit Denmark, but not Schleswig, Holstein, and Lauenburg, which potentially go to Christian, Duke of Augustenborg instead. With the duchies severed from Denmark and fearing British intervention, it seems entirely possible that the Schleswig Wars are avoided, which potentially butterflies German Unification and changes Sardinia's war(s) with Austria and on the Italian Peninsula.

 

[warmike_1]

Louis VII of France and Eleanor of Aquitaine.

Instead of annulling it, have their daughter inherit France.

Also, one that I created a separate thread for: Queen Victoria and Grand Duke Alexander of Russia (future Alexander II). Was thought to be too improbable to even be proposed, but it could have (more or less) realistically happened.